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Author Topic:   GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 337 (140589)
09-07-2004 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by lfen
09-06-2004 9:17 PM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claimW
Ifen writes:
I challenge you to find any theory wackier than this one and if you can't you must admit that you've been bested by me and give up your mission to bring the wackiest of theories to the EvC Forum. Do you accept my challenge? Can you find anything wackier than this or will you admit to your defeat at my hands and acknowledge that I am the new Champion of Wackery?
I'd like to offer this one:
Page not found – David Icke
The British royal family, the House of Windsor, is a major Illuminati bloodline going back to ancient times.
They are shape-shifting reptilians (see The Biggest Secret) and an important part of the web. They are not the top of the pyramid by any means and take orders from above, but they are very much involved in the global agenda and in the sacrificial ritual that always goes with it.
They are descendants of the Merovingian bloodline out of France which goes back to the Trojan Wars and beyond. It was the Merovingians, the royal bloodline of the Franks (hence France), who founded the city of Paris. They named it after Prince Paris, one of the players in the Trojan Wars story. The Merovingians worshipped the goddess Diana, the Moon goddess, and they created underground chambers for their rituals and sacrifice to Diana.
I don't believe this and I'm an atheist (pre-martyrdom). Guess it must be true then
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by lfen, posted 09-06-2004 9:17 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 3:10 AM Primordial Egg has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 227 of 337 (140591)
09-07-2004 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Primordial Egg
09-07-2004 2:57 AM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claimW
I'd better hollar for an Admin to move this to a new thread maybe in Free for All?
I don't want to lose my title. Give me some time to weasel on whether this claim is taken seriously by anyone including the author. I'm not sure Gardner's serious but he is taken serious by some. Shape shifting reptiles, sheeesh, that is wacky, but is it too wacky? I suspect it's a spoof...but dang it is wacky alright.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-07-2004 2:57 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Primordial Egg, posted 09-07-2004 3:28 AM lfen has replied

Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 337 (140592)
09-07-2004 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by lfen
09-07-2004 3:10 AM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claimW
sorry....didn't mean to derail your thread (maybe a new one's needed to evaluate the monarchy bloodline claim?)
trust me, David Icke is deadly serious - he used to be a sports presenter in the UK until the aliens came down, told him he was the chosen one and the world was full of shape shifting reptiles.
Take a look at some of the books he's written.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 3:10 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by lfen, posted 09-07-2004 11:36 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 229 of 337 (140649)
09-07-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Primordial Egg
09-07-2004 3:28 AM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claimW
It's just that it's not my thread and we've strayed off the original topic. I'll think of something and post it in the new topic forum.
No more said until then.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 230 of 337 (141081)
09-08-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Amlodhi
09-06-2004 2:24 AM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Remember, you brought up these sources.
When and where ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Amlodhi, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 AM Amlodhi has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 231 of 337 (141083)
09-08-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Amlodhi
09-06-2004 2:24 AM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Amlodhi writes:
Here are your undoubtedly Tea, Jeremiah/Ollam Fodhla, and Baruch/Simon Breac from the Annals:
M3502.2
The Age of the World, 3502.
Tea, daughter of Lughaidh, son of Ith, whom Eremhon married in Spain
(Annals of the Four Masters)
This partial genealogy of Tea given here can be further traced both in the Four Masters and in Lebor Gabala Erenn. To wit: Tea, daughter of Lughaidh > Ith > Breogan > Brath; all the way to: > Ibath > Gomer > Iafeth > Noe. Thus, according to the Annals I'm reading, in addition to Tea not being a daughter of Zedekiah, she is not even of Hebrew lineage but is, rather, a descendant of Japeth.
http://www.cdlreport.com/sermon20.htm
Subsequent to the time when Dr. Comparet delivered the foregoing address, Mr. E. Raymond Capt, author of "The Glory of the Stars," "Great Pyramid Decoded," and other writings, stated that new evidence, recently discovered, indicates that the transfer of the throne of David from Palestine to Europe may have been accomplished in a different manner than what is commonly believed. According to the older tradition, the daughters of Zedekiah were Tamar Tephi (known to her family and friends as Tea Tephi or Tea), and her younger sister, Scota; and this Tamar Tephi, or Tea, was married to Eochaidh in Ireland. The new evidence mentioned by Mr. Capt is discussed on pages 6465 of his book, "King Solomon's Temple," in which he quotes Ezekiel 17. 22, which says: "Thus saith the Lord God; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent." Mr. Capt then says: "This was fulfilled when Scota, King Zedekiah's daughter (the tender twig), was taken to Egypt by Jeremiah and then to Spain where she married 'ane Greyk callit Gathelus, son of Cecrops of Athens, King of Argives' (The Chronicles of Scotland by Hector Boece). In due time a son was born and was named 'Eochaidh' (Eremhon or King).
'From the 'Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters,' we find the following statement: 'Tea, the daughter of Loghaldh, son of Ith, whom Eremhon married in Spain was the Tea who requested of Eremhon a choice hill as her dower, in whatever place she should select it, that she might be interred therein. The hill she selected was Druim-caein, i.e. Teamhair (in Ireland)' (Vol. 1, pg. 31).
"This is only one of many historical records that place, not only Tea in Ireland, but her husband Eochaidh, 'the Heremon' (chief or King).
Amlodhi writes:
Thus, according to the Annals I'm reading, in addition to Tea not being a daughter of Zedekiah, she is not even of Hebrew lineage but is, rather, a descendant of Japeth.
Then she does indeed exist which refutes Mangy Tiger.
This is where the annals stray into error and the Bible provides the correct facts.
Amlodhi:
I offer this post for us to ascertain the truth. I consider this post not to be adversarial but a presentation of what I believe the truth is.
I am not even sure what you posted and what I post here contradict.
Please create a post that "sorts it out".
I am in no way finished with your original post # 213.
BTW, my source is:
From the archives/Real Player
http://www.drgenescott.com/TEACHING-PAGE.htm
S-988 WebTV 1/8/82 Introduction To Ireland via Duns, Ogam & Liafail; The Archaeology of Ireland by McAlister; Promises To Other Than Judah & Joseph; Apocryphal Works
S-1003 WebTV 2/3/82 A Detective Story: Tia Tephi & Ireland
S-1004 WebTV 2/6/82 Son of Zarah & The Daughters of Zedekiah
Edit:
Amlodhi writes:
Thus, according to the Annals I'm reading, in addition to Tea not being a daughter of Zedekiah, she is not even of Hebrew lineage but is, rather, a descendant of Japeth.
But that is not what the source says.
The Bible provides the overriding factual frame.
The source does not say what YOU ADD in the blue box ?
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-08-2004 07:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Amlodhi, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 AM Amlodhi has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 232 of 337 (141087)
09-08-2004 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Amlodhi
09-06-2004 2:24 AM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
And as anyone can see from the above quotations, taken from the annals themselves, Ollamh Fodhla was not Jeremiah, Simon Breac was not the scribe Baruch, and Tea was not Zedekiah's daughter. QED.
My sources correct the errors of your sources, especially the dating and the identification of who Ollamh Fodhla, Breac, and Tea actually is. But in reality, the annals do not say that so and so was not so and so - YOU assert that the personages in the annals are not what other sources evidence to be Jeremiah, Baruch, and a king's daughter.
http://asis.com/~stag/jerrytea.html (the source of this site is Dr. Scott)
"Olamh Fodhla" is a title and a name of a specific person.
"Breac" is obviously very similar to "Baruch"
From the link:
Remember the evidence I mentioned, that God would supply us to confirm Jeremiah's trip? The following picture is of an inscription found in a tomb located in Schiabhla-Cailliche, near Oldcastle, County, Meath, Ireland, not far from Tara. Thirty-some stones with strange markings upon them, lie in the sepulchral chamber within the huge cairn of stones which make up the tomb. A large carved stone outside the tomb is till pointed out as Jeremiah's judicial seat. Our confirmation lies on those thirty stones in the cairn.
One interperation, by George Dansie of Bristol, says the the stones show a Lunar Eclipse, in the constellation of Taurus and a conjunction of the planets Saturn and Jupiter in Virgo. The prow of a ship is shown in the center, with five lines indicating the number of passengers it carries. On the left, a part of the ship, perhaps the stern, is shown with only four passengers, one having been left behind, as indicated by the line falling away from the ship. The wavy line indicates the passage of the ship across the ocean, terminating at a central point on an island.
The stellar and planetary alignment of the inscription gives a date of 583 BC. This date allows just the right amount of time for our little band to go to Egypt, and return to Palestine briefly before making their way to Spain, then Ireland.
Now go to the link and view the picture.
Thus, according to the Annals of the Irish Liber Britannicus, the Saxon's derived from Saxo and the Britons derived from Britus. Note that Saxo and Britus are here recorded as descendants of Japeth.
This does not contradict much less refute anything that I have argued except the Bible says the descent is from Shem.
Prince Brutus was a descendant of Zara, he founded New Troy/London.
I think you need to address what the Bible says because as it sits now you are asserting any and all source, whether major or obscure to carry more weight than scripture.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-08-2004 07:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Amlodhi, posted 09-06-2004 2:24 AM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Amlodhi, posted 09-11-2004 5:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 233 of 337 (141446)
09-10-2004 5:06 PM


More Proof Part 1
404 - Truth in History
When Holy Scripture lands the ten tribes of Israel on the banks of the Caspian Sea, the records of their history cease, and they become, to future ages, the "Lost Tribes." This was about 580 years before our "Christian Era" began. Do not forget the date.
About the first quarter of the 19th Century lived a "gentleman and a scholar" V Sharon Turner by name V who zealously undertook the Herculean, Historical task of tracing his British ancestry; and we have the result in a book (long out of print, but still found in large public libraries) entitled "A History of the Anglo Saxons." This amazingly patient investigator took up, seriatim, the various people who had settled in the British Isles V The Saxons, the Danes, the Normans, the Jutes, the Angles, etc. V and traced them all to one source. He found that, varied as were their names, they were one people, and he traced them to the banks of the Caspian, about the close of the Sixth Century, before Christ. "Here," he declares, "all traces of our ancestors are lost."
I need not link Scripture and "Profane" History at this startling point, for my intelligent hearers. It is self-evident that the ten tribes on the banks of the Caspian, as left there by Scripture, are the "Anglo Saxons" of Sharon Turners book. We may safely shout, "Eureka!" To the vexed question of the ages, viz., "Where are the Lost Tribes of Israel?"
The value of Sharon Turners testimony lies, chiefly in this: That he died without knowing what he had done. He never dreamed of the amazing identity he had unwittingly discovered. He told to others where he had found his ancestors, while to himself "all traces of them were lost" on the banks of the Caspian. To us, who read the secret as from an open book, it is almost incredible that such an investigator did not see it at once. But he never did.
404 - Truth in History
"Heritage Southwest Jewish Press"
Vol. 5727 Thursday, April 20, 1967 No. 31
ONLY IN AMERICA
The 10 Lost Tribes
By Harry Golden
Isaiah, the prophet, wrote that the remnant of Yawheh's people would be found in the "isles of the sea." Isn't it reasonable this remnant may be the people of the British Isles?
Grant me the possibility and I shall proceed to unravel the great archaeological riddle of the ages, what happened to the ten lost tribes?
The men of Dan escaped slaughter when Shalmanaser subjugated the ten tribes.
As they made their way across Europe, they left indelible evidence of their journey.
They called the places they stopped after the name of their tribe: thus Danube, Dnieper, Denmark, etc., all of which lay along their route of march.
The men of Dan eventually settled in Ireland and were known as Tuatha de Daanana.
None of this is imaginary research. One has only to dip into the work of the eminent Rabbi S. Raisin to see how well documented and probably this hypothesis is.
Along with the Danites, the other coastal tribes, the Asher, Manasseh, Ephraim, and Simeon, escaped Shalmanaser's fury. Obviously, the Simeonites became the Simoni [or Cimerii] of Wales.
The Danites called their new home arzaret, which means "another Land of Israel" and gradually they also came to call themselves Gauls which is a metamorphosis of the word "Golim" meaning exiles.
Some of them called themselves Saccae which derives from Succotites and means "dwellers in booths."
Theses were the fellows who emigrated to the next island and came to call themselves Scotsmen for all "Scotch" means, as any student of Anglo-Saxon know, is "Irisher."
Others from Ireland emigrated to Wales and the folk ethos remained strongest here.
David remained their favorite name and became their patron saint, although they forgot their Hebrew for as Isaiah said,
"For with stammering lips and with a strange tongue shall it be spoken to the people."
Returning once again to the Old Testament for more verification, we see that when Zedekiah, the last ruler of Judea was carried off into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar, his daughter, Tea Tophi found refuge under the guardianship of Jeremiah.
Jeremiah also saved her royal escutcheon, the harp, and the Wonderful Stone, the fountain stone of the temple of Mount Zion. When Tea Tephi married Heremon, the ruler of the Danites, the Lion of Judah was united with the Unicorn of Joseph a characteristic of all English heraldry.
Last but not least, consider that the word "Britain" may well be a corruption of the Hebrew "Brith-am" meaning the "people of the Covenant."
What do I mean by all this? Simple.
The Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, and the Irish Catholics are really my cousins -- all right, so it's a few times removed.
All of us knew it all along.
404 - Truth in History
CHIEF RABBI DR. HERTZ
"The people known at present as Jews are the descendants of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. So far as is known, there is not any further admixture of other tribes. The Jews look forward to the gathering of all the tribes at some future date. And so as we look around the world, we are driven to believe with Bishop Gobat, former Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, "that a solid ground exists for the Anglo-Israel hypothesis since nowhere else can Ephraim be found fulfilling the required conditions of Scripture."
THE "JEWISH CHRONICLE" MAY 2, 1890
"The fate of the lost Ten Tribes is a mystery which has a peculiar fascination for some minds. While not a link is missing of the historical chain so far as the remnant of the House of Judah is concerned, the Israelites who were subjugated by the Assyrian power disappear from the page of history as suddenly and completely as though the land of the captivity had swallowed them up. Beyond some vague reference to them in a passage of Josephus, no mention is made by an authentic writer of their surviving the destruction of their nationality. There has always been, however, an unwillingness to admit that a fate that has befallen so many nations has overtaken the Ten Tribes. Why should they have been less tenacious of life than their brethren of Judah? Nay, the Scriptures speak of a future restoration of Israel , which is clearly to include both Judah and Ephraim. The problem, then, is reduced to the simplest form. The Ten Tribes are certainly in existence. All that has to be done is to discover which people represent them."
______________________________________________________________________
Dr. Moses Margouliouth, a Jewish scholar of the 19th Century, in his "History of the Jews" said, "It may not be out of place to state that the isles afar off mentioned in the 31st chapter of Jeremiah were supposed by the ancients to be Britannia, Scotia and Hibernia."
FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
Josephus, the highly respected and reliable Jewish historian recorded in 70 A.D. that: "there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers" (Book 11, Chap. 5, Par. 2).

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
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Message 234 of 337 (141447)
09-10-2004 5:10 PM


More Proof Part 2
404 - Truth in History
"Lecture":
by Elieser Bassin, C.M.,Ph.B.
On my arrival in England, for the first time, in 1876, I heard of the theory that the British people are the descendants of the Ten Tribes of Israel. Many a time Christian friends asked me what I thought of that theory, and my answer generally was, I would gladly accept the British as my brethren, the children of Abraham, but I do not know how such a theory can be established. How is it possible that such a mixed race, like the British, made up of the Welsh Kymry, the Keltic ancient Britons, the Picts and Scots, and Scythian Angles, the Teutonic or Gothic Saxons, the Danes and Normans, could ever have been brethren, the children of one father, Israel? Until the beginning of 1884, I looked upon the theory as curious, and only a crotchet, although I had never meditated on the subject for ten minutes, because I thought that it was not worth while to give the slightest attention to such an apparently ridiculous theory. But now that I have given great attention, both in reading and reflection, to the subject of the Identity of the British nation with the Ten Tribes of Israel, I have come to the conclusion that the subject is highly interesting, and of great importance to Christians and to Jews.
I cannot enter fully into the particulars of my views in the limits of one lecture; but I hope, by the help of God, to bring them out clearly in my lectures on "Gods Dealings with His Chosen People Israel," which I intend to deliver by-and-by. Meanwhile, I will endeavour to give you an outline of the reasons why I believe that the British nation is identical with the ancient kingdom of Israel. And I entreat you, dear friends, in the words of the Right Rev. Dr. Ryle, Bishop of Liverpool, in his tract, "Scattered and Gathered," "not to dismiss the subject as speculative, fanciful, and unprofitable." The world is growing old; the last days are come upon us; the foundations of the earth are out of course; the ancient institutions of society are wearing out and going to pieces. The end of all is things at hand. Surely it becomes a wise man at a time like this, to turn to the pages of prophecy, and inquire what is yet to come? At a time like this the declaration of God concerning His people Israel ought to be carefully weighed and examined. At the time of the end, says Daniel, "the wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10).
The words just quoted from the Bishop of Liverpool are of great value to us, although the venerable Bishop applies it to the Jews, who are only a small part of Israel. The tract is very interesting, but I am sorry that the author makes no difference in it between the two Houses of Israel and Judah. We know, from 1 Kings 12, of the separation between Judah and Israel: but we know of no union that took place between them.
The Lord, for His wise ends, separated and kept them apart for nearly three thousand years: and during most of the time Israel was unknown, according to Hosea 1:9, while the Jews were known as a by-word and reproach, according to Jeremiah 24:9. One part of the prophecies has been fulfilled in the case of one section of Israel; and a second part has to be fulfilled in the case of the other section of Jacobs descendants.
The time of their union has not yet come; but there is a glorious and blessed union still in store for Judah and Israel. According to Zechariah 10:6-12. The House of Israel, which is now lost and hidden from the sight of men, must be found before the glorious union of Judah and Israel takes place. Israel will be found by the world; and it has been found in these latter days by many, and also by me.
And now, after these few introductory remarks, I will tell you how and where I found the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel. Some of you will remember the lecture I had the privilege of delivering last February in the parish church of this town on behalf of my persecuted brethren. After that lecture a lady whom I now see in the hall handed me the Rev. Dr. Pooles "Fifty Reasons Why the Anglo-Saxons are Israelites." The Rev. Mr. Jameson, your parish minister, who presided on that occasion, and my friend, General Hogan, who is now in the chair, will perhaps recollect my jesting on the subject of Identity, which I then considered to be an absurdly extravagant theory.
Next morning I left for Aberdeen, and being about six hours in the train, I had time to read carefully Dr. Pooles pamphlet. I took my Hebrew Bible and began to examine the passages referred to, and was so intent on studying the subject, that for some minutes after the train had stopped I did not notice its arrival in Aberdeen. With all the arguments in that pamphlet I could not agree, but from that time I began to think over the subject with an unprejudiced desire to discover the truth in regard to the matter for its own sake. I was very much encouraged to search for the Lost Tribes in Britain by the quotation of Rev. Dr. Poole from Dr. Abbadie, of Amsterdam, who said in 1723, "Unless the Ten Tribes have flown into the air, or have been plunged to the centres of the earth, they must be sought for in the North and West and in the British Isles." For some months I studied the subject carefully from a Scriptural standpoint, and I found that the predictions of the Bible are much more easily interpreted on the supposition that the Identity theory is true than on any other supposition. The great difficulty to me was, how the theory could be established from philology, ethnology, and history; and this difficulty still prevented me becoming a convert to the Anglo-Israel belief.
A few months later I had the honour of making t he acquaintance of Mrs. Geils, of Ardmore, who is a firm believer in the Identity and ful1 of zeal in promoting her views. She supplied me with a large number of books on the subject. I read also pamphlets written in refutation of the theory, and I found that both parties run into extremes and equally fall into grievous mistakes! However, one who wishes to find truth for its own sake will notice in reading the books written in defense of Anglo-Israelism that each book throws more or less light on the subject.
I shall now relate how my difficulties about the various British peoples were removed: I resolved to trace carefully the various races of Britain from their original habitations.
We have (1) the Keltic Britons; (2) the Romans; (3) the Picts and Scots; (4) the Angles; (5) the Saxons; (6) the Frisians; (7) the Danes; (8) the Normans. Now I put aside the Romans, who never mingled with the Britons. They encamped in the island, and were the rulers over the country, but left it, after 400 years of occupation, in A.D. 418 in the same manner as they had entered it, leaving behind them only traces of military camps and forts, but no colonies.
I then began to trace the Keltic Britons, and found them to be the first Israelitish emigrants, who emigrated from Palestine to Spain (then called Tarshish) perhaps as early as 1285 BC; for we know from Judges 5: 17, that Dan had ships at that time, and it is most probable some of the Danites emigrated to another land, when Israel was under the yoke of Jabin, king of Canaan, of the king of Moab, the king of Mesopotamia, and of the Philistines. There can be no doubt that there were Hebrew colonists in Spain during Solomons reign; for we read in 1 Kings 10:22, that Solomon had at sea a navy of Tarshish, bringing gold and silver, ivory and apes, and peacocks. I think it is quite reasonable to suppose that Solomon must have had in that country a colony of Hebrew merchants and labourers. In confirmation of the fact, that there were Hebrew colonists in Spain in the reign of Solomon, Bishop Titcombe tells of an extract he took from a learned Latin commentary on Ezekiel, by Father Vilalpandus, where, after quoting from Philo, Josephus, Seneca, and Cicero on the subject of Hebrew colonization in Spain, he mentions the remarkable fact that a stone had been found at Saguntum, having an inscription in Hebrew characters sculptured upon it, running thus: "This is the tomb of Adoniram, the servant of King Solomon, who came to collect tribute and died here." (See 1 Kings 4: 6.) From the voyage of Jonah, as we read in Jonah 1:3, we learn that the ships of commerce traded regularly between Tarshish and the coast of Palestine, for he found at Joppa a vessel ready for the voyage at the very moment he wished to set sail. And why should Jonah flee to Tarshish if no Hebrew colonists were there? It cannot but be supposed, therefore, that at the impending invasion from Assyria tribes like those of Dan and Asher, which were used to navigation, availed themselves of the same means of escape as Jonah.
Tacitus says that the Silures, or inhabitants of Wales in his time, resembled the people of Spain, from which he concluded that they were of Spanish origin (Vit. Agr. 11). I was still more confirmed by the assertion of Strabo, who says of the Aquitani, on the shores opposite to Britain, that they resembled the Iberi of Spain, more than they did the other Gauls, in language and appearance (lib. 4 1, 2). There is a great similarity between the words Iberi and Hebrew, and a still greater between Iberi and the original [Hebrew] form [of] Ibri, which is without the aspirate. There is a frequent interchange of e and i in the spelling of ancient names, and the prefixing of the aspirate h is quite common: hence we have Heber for Eber, Hibernian for Ibernian. After collecting all the information I could get on the subject, I came to the conclusion that some of the Israelites escaped about BC 720 from the coasts of Palestine to Spain, where a Hebrew colony already existed, and that the Spanish Kelts who were Israelites, migrated to Cornwall and Ireland even before the kingdom of Israel was carried away captive by Shalmaneser.
Having found who the Keltic Britons were, I proceeded with my enquiry as to who the Welsh Kymry were, and read what Thomas Stephans, in his work on "The Literature of the Kymry," says: They are the last remnant (he says) of the Kimmerioi, of Homer, and the Kymry (Cimbri) of Germany. From the Chersonesus (Jutland) a portion of them landed on the shores of Northumberland, gave their name to the county of Cumberland, and in process of time followed the shore to their present resting-place, where they still call themselves Kymry and give their country a similar name. Their history, clear, concise, and authentic, ascends to a high antiquity. Their language was embodied in verse long before the languages now spoken rose into notice: and their literature, cultivated and abundant, lays claim to being the most ancient in modern Europe. Professor Rawlinson, following Sharon Turner, admits that "the identity of the Cymri of Wales with the Cimbri of the Romans seems worthy of being accepted as a historical fact, upon the grounds stated by Niebuhr and Arnold."
Next I sought to discover the origin of the Kymry of Wales, and from which family of the human race they sprang. But having no longer the classic historians of Greece and Rome to guide me, I was obliged to consult the books which existed before the use of the papyrus was general, and when the sun-dried brick was the common table and the Imperial Blue-Book. Such books have been recovered in the mounds of Assyrian ruins, and among other inscriptions is the "Nimroud Obelisk," now in the British Museum. It records the annals of Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, whose rule was between 858 and 823 BC, and one of the items runs thus: V
"The tribute of Jehu, the son of Omri (Jahua Abil-Khumree), silver, gold, bowls, vessels of gold, &c., with sceptres for the kings hand, all these have I received."
Another set of inscriptions, which tells the story of Tiglath-Pilesers reign, gives us the following, unfortunately broken, record: V "The land of Samaria (Beth Khumree) . . . the population . . . the goods of its people . . . I sent to Assyria. As they had slain Pekah, their king, I appointed Hosea over the kingdom."
The palace walls of Sargon, a successor of Tiglath-Pileser, display these words: V " By the aid of the sun I captured the city of Samaria (Khumree), and carried into captivity 27,280 of its inhabitants."
I believe that you will agree with me that, from what has already been said, it can be satisfactorily concluded that the kingdom of Israel, of Scripture, and the Beth Khumree of the Assyrian inscriptions, are identical. History presents these people as having been carried captive by the Assyrians at various periods between the year 740 and 721 BC; and they were settled in the "cities of the Medes," near the shores of the Caspian Sea, east of the river Araxes, where, in a Russian fortress termed "Gumri," their name is to be found on the banks of the Araxes till the present day.
The meaning of the name Gimiri or Khumree is, according to Sir Henry Rawlinson, "The Tribes," which was the most common appellation of the people of Israel.
Being convinced that Welsh Kymry, as well as the Keltic Britons, belonged to the Hebrew race, I began to consider the case of the next nation that came to Britain, and found that the Jutes from Jutland arrived about AD 449, and 98 years afterwards, in AD 547 came the Angles. This brought me to the great Anglo-Saxon race. I then turned to Sharon Turners celebrated work, on the "History of the Anglo-Saxons," and I found him saying in book 2, chapter 1: "The Saxons were a Gothic or Scythian tribe; and of the various Scythian nations which have been recorded, the Sakai, or Sacae, are the people from whom the descent of the Saxons may be inferred with the least violation of probability. Sakaisuna, or the sons of the Sakai, abbreviated into Saksun, which is the same sound as Saxon, seems a reasonable etymology of the word Saxon. The Sakai, who in Latin are called Sacae, were an important branch of the Scythian race. They were so celebrated, that the Persians called all the Scythians by the name of Sace; and Pliny, who mentions this, ranks them as among the most distinguished people of Scythia. Strabo places them eastward of the Caspian, and states them to have made many incursions on the Kimmerians and Treres, both far and near. They seized Bactriana, and the most fertile part of Armenia, which from them derived the name Sakasina; they defeated Cyrus; and they reached the Cappadoces on the Euxine. This important fact of a part of Armenia having been named Sakasina is mentioned by Strabo in another place; and seems to give a geographical locality to our primeval ancestors, and to account for the Persian words that occur in the Saxon language, as they must have come into Armenia from the Northern regions of Persia.
"That some of the divisions of this people were really called Sakasuna, is obvious from Pliny; for he says, that the Sakai, who settled in Armenia, were named Sacassani, which is but Saka-suna, spelt by a person unacquainted with the meaning of the combined words. And the name Sacasena, which they gave to the part of Armenia they occupied, is nearly the same sound as Saxonia. It is also important to remark, that Ptolemy mentions a Sythian people, sprung from the Sakai, who reached Armenia, who were called Sacassani; they may have traversed Europe with the same appellation; which being pronounced by the Romans from them, and then reduced to writing from their pronunciation, may have been spelt with the x instead of the ks, and thus Saxones would not be a greater variation from Sacassani, or Saksuna, than we find between French, Francois, Franci, and their Greek name, or between Spain, Espagne, and Hispania."
In tracing the earliest mention we have of the word "Saxon," I found it in its first shape, Sakae, in the inscriptions on the Behistun Rock, which Sir H. Rawlinson concludes must belong to the date 516 BC. This writing is 300 feet above the level of the plain, in the face of a precipitous rock, which rises perpendicular to a height of 1700 feet. Rawlinson first deciphered the letters by the aid of a telescope. The portion specially referred to here is a sculpture representing Darius Hystaspes trampling on the body of one captive, while eight others are standing before him, tied together by their necks; each one having his name and his crime recorded on a tablet over his head. The last figure of the eight is "represented with a high-peaked cap, exactly like that worn by the ancient Israelites and a cast of countenance totally unlike the rest," and is described as follows: "This is Esku-ka, the chief of the Sakae."
It was not the first time that the Hebrews were called by another name. They were called "Children of Abraham," then "sons of Jacob" and "children of Israel," then "Beth Omri," or Khumree, and in Amos 7:16, and Psalm 105:9, they are called [in Hebrew] "the house of Isaac".
The [Hebrew] name has been undergoing a change in writing and pronounciation. even in the Bible, for in Amos 7:16, and Psalms 105:9, we see that instead of (yits-chak) we read (yis-chak), the [Hebrew] letter (Tsude) being changed into a (sin). It is very common in the east to drop the letter I and so we have Schaek for Ischaek, and in dropping the guttural (ch), we have Sak or Saac; the letter k or c is often changed to x, and thus we have Saax, and with the termination ons, which means son, we have Saaexons. Seeing so good historical, philological, etymological, and ethnological authority for connecting Israel, after the great captivity and complete deportation, with a people whom we can trace throughout the later historical records, I do not hesitate to confess that I firmly believe that the Anglo-Saxons are of the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel V the House of Isaac, the children of Abraham, the friend of God, to whom God has given an unconditional promise that his seed shall be as the dust of the earth, the stars of heaven, the sands on the sea shore, and that a nation and a company of nations shall descend from him.
After the Saxons came the Danes to Britain in AD 787, and the Normans in AD 1066. In enquiring as to the origin of those people, who helped to make up the present British nation, I found that Sharon Turner, who supports his opinions by quotations from Herodotus, Strabo, Pliny, and Josephus, says: "The Anglo-Saxons, Lowland Scotch, Danes and Normans, all sprang from the same stock."
Thierry, in his History of the Norman Conquest, Book 2, says: V "Such was the first appearance in England of the Northern pirates, called Danes or Normans, according as they came from the island in the Baltic Sea, or from the coast of Norway. They descended from the same primitive race as the Anglo-Saxons."
On these and many other grounds, which I do not now quote, because it is impossible to do so in the limits of a lecture, I came to the conclusion that the Keltic ancient Britons, the Picts and Scots, the Scythian Angles, the Gothic Saxons, the Frisians, the Danes and the Normans have in truth been brethren, the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. But in spite of all that I had discovered, there remained a dark and insoluble riddle, how they should so nicely and trimly have been united into one people in Britain in order to represent the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. This riddle cannot be solved by the aid of ordinary analogies or of common ethnic migration. But when I recollected that I was considering the history of Gods chosen people, who were subjects of divine prophecy, I felt sure that He who guides the course of Providence would be fully able to work out His own designs, and bring these masses of Israelites, who were scattered, into such lines of forward movement as would place them just where He meant them to be collected together. Therefore I resolved to study again the Bible carefully to see what the Scripture indicates concerning the Ten-Tribed kingdom of Israel.
I began the investigation of the prophecies with Hosea, who had a special mission to the Ten Tribes of Israel. In the first chapter the prophet represents the Ten Tribes under the figure of the children Jezreel, Lo-Ruhama, and Lo-Ammi, being symbolical of their approaching condition of exile, when they were to be judged, cast off, and made uncovenanted as Gentiles. Hosea says, further, in chapter 2:8, that God will hedge up the way of the Ten Tribes with thorns, and make a wall, so that they shall not find their path. Again, in chapter 8:8-9, he says: "Israel is swallowed up; now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure"V that is, they shall be hidden from view, or put out of sight. "For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself." In the book of Hosea, from beginning to end, we see that Ephraim-Israel were to be lost to themselves and to other nations.
From Ezekiel 20:32-39 it would seem that the Israelitish captives in Assyria were anxious to obliterate all mark of their origin, but God vows to prevent their utter corruption, and assimilation with the heathen by whom they are surrounded, and addresses them in the following words: "And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all: that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone. As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and a stretched-out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you; and I will bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand and with a stretched-out arm, and with fury poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there I will plead with you face to face; like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God, and I will cause you to pass under the rod. And I will bring you into the bond of the covenant."
God has cast Ephraim-Israel away, but their case was still entirely in His hand. Although divorced, and sent away from the land which He calls His own, they were not cast out of His care or beyond His control, and in spite of the enormity of their wickedness, which caused Him to cast them out of His land, He had determined to keep a watchful care over them; for "God is not a man that He should lie," or not fulfill the unconditional special blessings He promised to Abraham, that his descendants should become great, mighty and prosperous.
After God had scattered Israel in many countries of Asia and Europe, the time came that the promise of God in Hosea 2:14 was to be fulfilled: "Therefore I will allure her and bring her into the wilderness (i.e., the then thinly inhabited Britain, which was like a wilderness), and (I will) speak comfortably to her." And again: "Hear the word of the Lord, 0 ye nations, declare it in the isles (of Britain) afar off (from Palestine), and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him and keep him" (Jeremiah 31:10).
When the main body of Israel was by the providence of God gathered to the British Isles, and after a time of fighting among themselves, they returned unto the Lord, for the time had then come that the prophecy of Hosea 1:10 should be fulfilled, which says: "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." Through Christ the British-Israel are the children of the living God, children of Abraham according to the spirit as well as according to the flesh, and therefore from that time they began to enjoy all the earthly blessings promised to Abraham and to his seed for ever, which are only a shadow of the heavenly blessings.
Since that time the birthright promises began to be realized, that the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel were to be more than ever as "the dust of the earth" (Gen. 13:16), and as "the stars of heaven" (Gen. 15:5) and to become "a company of nations" (Gen. 35:11).
Israel has been blessed in Britain, so that the Isles have become too strait for his children, and he required new territory. This was foretold in Isaiah 49:19, 21, and another Scripture had to be fulfilled that declares of Israel, "Thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left, and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited " (Isaiah 54:3).
Among the many marks which the British people have to show as proof that they are the lost Israelites, is the possession of the "Gates" or strongholds of their "enemies," according to the promise of God (see Gen. 22:17). When we take the atlas, we see that Britain possesses, as Philo-Israel describes it, the grand points all over the world, which give her power and influence in all the countries. These are:
Gibraltar, in Spain, a true Gate of the Mediterranean.
Malta, which was formerly the property of the French, and is a sort of door or Gate to the Mediterranean Sea Eastwards.
A large share of the Suez Canal, a Gate of the Red Sea and of Egypt.
The Island of Perim, a place which is at the South of the Red Sea, and whoever has that can shut up the road into that sea, or open up the passage towards Egypt from India as he likes.
Aden, a port in Arabia, which is a Gate of entry into that country.
The island of Socotra, close to Aden, which is another Gate to guard the entry into the Red Sea, the road to the land of Israel from the East and from India.
The seaport town of Bombay, and that Gate gave Britain all Western India.
Madras, and the possession of it has enabled Britain to take all South India, and hold Ceylon besides.
The great Gate Calcutta, in North India, which is the chief city of all those parts.
There is Burma, too, a country of which we have taken a great portion, because we seized the town of Rangoon some years ago; and Rangoon is a Gate of the Burmese Empire.
On the other side of India, up to the far North-east you will see on the maps a town called Peshawur, which is the door of the road into Afghanistan from India, and this is a Gate also which God gave to our nation in 1849.
Then in the Straits of Malacca there are three places you will findXPenang (an island), Malacca and SingaporeXall three Gates or strongholds, giving the owners "command" of that passage; and we British have been made by God to possess them all three.
Beyond these spots there is the Island of Labuan and the town of Sarawak, in and off the large continent Island of Borneo; and these two Gates we hold.
Off the coast of China there is the strong Island of Hong Kong, which God gave us to possess, and there are many seaport towns on the East Coasts of China where He has made us very powerful, because of our Navy, and these places are, I think, going to be "Gates" for the destruction of the Chinese Empire, and the transfer of it, perhaps, to the British nation.
Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide. and Perth are Gates in Australia, which God gave to Britain.
The islands of New Zealand are great Gates.
Then there is Tasmania, which is British; and we got that by having the Gates of Australia.
Going round to Africa we have a large slice of that country to the South; and we got "possession" because of our hold on "the Gates," Cape Town and Natal.
Further North-west, there is Cape Coast CastleXa Gate which enabled us lately to conquer the Ashantee kingdom and destroy Coomassie.
St. Helena is a true British Gate, because it gives us influence at sea on the ocean road to India.
And finally, we have Gates in the Falkland Islands, at the very South of South America, besides Ushuwia, in Tierra del Fuego. We have also Gates in the West India Islands and in Georgetown, British Guiana.
It seems to me that in accordance with common sense and Scripture truth, the British are the main body of Israel indeed, for if not, why are the blessings promised by God to Abraham and his seed for ever now inherited by Britain? It is my conviction that Britain is the nation with whom God has from first to last identified Himself, in which He has been pleased to show forth the glory of His divine attributes, and that He is doing so at the present moment, and will do so until the end of time. "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew" (Romans11:1). God has foreknown Israel and has chosen them as a nation to enjoy supremacy and preference before all nations in the world, to be a holy nation unto God, as it is written: "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God. The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deuteronomy 7:6). No one can deny that Britain, as a nation, is holier than any nation in the world. I do not say a perfectly holy nation, but holier in every respect than other nations, a more special people unto God than any other people on earth, with the exception of the Jews, who are the brethren of the British people, with whom Gods dealings are as marvelous as His dealings with the British. The reason of it we have clearly given to us in Gods Holy Word, in Deuteronomy 7:8, in order to keep His vow to the fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 235 of 337 (141448)
09-10-2004 5:15 PM


More Proof Part 2
Content deleted - unexplainable double post.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 09-10-2004 04:19 PM

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 337 (141626)
09-11-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Cold Foreign Object
09-08-2004 8:47 PM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Remember, you brought up these sources.
quote:
Willowtree: When and where ?
When: 08-31-2004 10:46 PM
Where: Message 172
Quote: "Jeremiah planted Tia Tephi in Ireland where she married Echoid Heremon/reigning king of Ireland."
If this is not a reference to the Annals of Ireland; what is it? The bible says neither "Tea" nor "Heremon, king of Ireland".
quote:
Originally posted by WT
Please create a post that "sorts it out".
At this point, I really don't see that there is much to sort out. It could be that what you say is true and I would have no problem with that. But if it is, why does no one seem able to point to specific references in the actual source documents?
Everything I have read to date in the actual annals seems to clearly refute the conjecture regarding a Jeremiah/Ollam Fodhla, Baruch/Breac and Tea/daughter of Zedekiah connection. Some of these source citations have already been provided in a previous post, i.e. the fact that these personages in the annals are separated by hundreds of years, the fact that they are recorded as being the sons and daughter of people other than what your conjecture would require, the fact that their descriptions as various reigning kings don't match your conjecture, and the fact that the recorded genealogies trace their descent from Japeth rather than from Shem.
I see you post C&P after C&P from various websites which all reiterate the desired Jeremiah/Tea story; but not a one of them appears able to say, "here" or "here" in the texts of the annals is where this information can be found. Why is that? Is it non-existent?
quote:
WT:
Mr. Capt then says: "This was fulfilled when Scota, King Zedekiah's daughter (the tender twig), was taken to Egypt by Jeremiah and then to Spain . . .
http://www.cdlreport.com/sermon20.htm
Mr. Capt says this? Okay, but the question remains: Where does he get this information? If Scota is the daughter of king Zedekiah, why do the annals record that she was the daughter of Pharaoh king of Egypt?
quote:
74 Scota d. Pharao king of Egypt, also died in that battlethe wife of rimn s. Ml. For Ml s. Bile went a-voyaging into Egypt, four ships’ companies strong, and he took Scota to wife, and rimn took her after him.
Lebor Gabla renn: Book of the Taking of Ireland. vol. 4. ed. and tr. by R. A. S. Macalister. Dublin: Irish Texts Society, 1941.
Lebor Gabala Erenn
M3500.1
The fleet of the sone of Milidh came to Ireland at the end of this year, to take it from the Tuatha De Dananns; and they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis with them on the third day after landing. In this battle fell Scota, the daughter of Pharaoh, wife of Milidh; and the grave of Scota is to be seen between Sliabh Mis and the sea.
Annala Rioghachta Eireann: Annals of the kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100005A/index.html
quote:
WT:
'From the 'Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters,' we find the following statement: 'Tea, the daughter of Loghaldh, son of Ith, whom Eremhon married in Spain was the Tea who requested of Eremhon a choice hill as her dower, in whatever place she should select it, that she might be interred therein. The hill she selected was Druim-caein, i.e. Teamhair (in Ireland)' (Vol. 1, pg. 31).
Which is exactly the citation I provided in my previous post, to wit: "83. As for Tea d. Lugaid s. th". If Tea is the daughter of Lugaid, how can she be the daughter of Zedekiah? Since, of course, she can't be, it has been suggested that "Lugaid" is Gaelic for "house of God" or thus, "Bethel". Yet the annals themselves tell us the meaning of Lugaid:
quote:
83. Lugaid means Lug th, that is, Lug, who was less than his father".
Lebor Gabla renn: Book of the Taking of Ireland. vol. 4. ed. and tr. by R. A. S. Macalister. Dublin: Irish Texts Society, 1941.
It should also be asked whether Bethel (house of God) had a father named Ith who, in turn, was a son of Breogan.
Thus, as has already been pointed out, this citation does not imply that Tea was a daughter of Zedekiah. Rather, in point of fact, it would appear to refute such a notion.
quote:
WT:
Then she does indeed exist which refutes Mangy Tiger.
From reading back through Mangy Tiger's posts, I don't think he means to say that "Tea" was non-existent per-se. Only that a "Tea Tephi" (especially as you had described her), was non-existent in the annals.
quote:
WT:
This is where the annals stray into error and the Bible provides the correct facts.
As it pertains to the Jeremiah/Tea connection (which I want to stick with for now), this statement doesn't even make any sense. Again, the bible says nothing with regard to any "Tea". Thus, the only place where a description of Tea can be obtained is in the annals. If the descriptions of Tea in the annals contradict the conjecture that she was Zedekiah's daughter (which they appear to do), then we are left with no reason whatsoever to assume that she was.
quote:
WT:
BTW, my source is: From the archives/Real Player
http://www.drgenescott.com/TEACHING-PAGE.htm
And again, this is not a source. Unless Dr. Scott is receiving direct revelations from God ala John on the Isle of Patmos, then he (like everyone else) must access sources which he then interprets. IOW, I don't want to hear someone say that the annals record that Jeremiah brought Tea Tephi to Ireland; I want a referenced citation to the text which allegedly contains this information.
quote:
Previously posted by Amlodhi
Tea, daughter of Lughaidh > Ith > Breogan > Brath; all the way to: > Ibath > Gomer > Iafeth > Noe. Thus, according to the Annals I'm reading, in addition to Tea not being a daughter of Zedekiah, she is not even of Hebrew lineage but is, rather, a descendant of Japeth.
quote:
Reply by WT:
But that is not what the source says. The source does not say what YOU ADD in the blue box ?
But it does:
quote:
9. Gomer son of Iafeth had two sons, Emoth and Ibath. Ibath had two sons, Bodb and Baath.
11. Baath, [one of the two sons of Ibath] s. Gomer s. Iafeth, of him are the Gaedil and the people of Scythia. He had a son, the noble eminent man whose name was Feinus Farsaid.
22. Brath s. Death s. Ercha s. Allot s. Nuadu s. Nenual s. Febri Glas s. Agni find s. Eber Glunfhind s. Lamfhind s. Agnomain s. Tat s. Agnomain s. Boamain s. Eber Scot s. Sru s. Esru s. Gaedel Glas s. Nel s. Feinius Farsaid:
25. Brath had a good son named Breogan From Breogan's Tower it was that Ireland was seen; an evening of a day of winter. Ith s. Breogan saw it.
66. th s. Breogan, who saw Ireland at the first . . .
71. It is then that a plot was laid by them to kill th . . .
72 Moreover Lugaid s. th came also, the hard valorous warrior with the strength of an hundred, to avenge his father along with them all.
83. Howbeit, Odba d. Ml, mother of the three sons of rimn, of Muimne, Luigne, and Laigne, she it is whom rimn deserted in Spain, taking Tea in her stead. . . As for Tea d. Lugaid s. th, she it was whom rimn took instead of Odba; and she was to choose a mound in Ireland as her bridal portion.
Lebor Gabla renn: Book of the Taking of Ireland. vol. 4. ed. and tr. by R. A. S. Macalister. Dublin: Irish Texts Society, 1941.
So all you have to do is follow it back: Tea, daughter of Lugaid > Lugaid, son of Ith > Ith, son of Breogan > son of Brath > son of Death > of Ercha > of Allot > of Nuadu > of Nenual > of Febri Glas > of Agni Find > of Eber Glunfhind > of Lamfhind > of Agnomain > of Tat > of Agnomain > of Boamain > of Eber Scot > of Sru > of Esru > of Gaedel Glas > of Nel > of Feinus Farsaid > of Baath > of Ibath > of Gomer > of Iafeth.
Nothing was added. According to the genealogy given here in Lebor Gabla renn, Tea was not even of Hebrew lineage but was, rather, a descendant of Japeth.
quote:
WT:
But in reality, the annals do not say that so and so was not so and so - YOU assert that the personages in the annals are not what other sources evidence to be Jeremiah, Baruch, and a king's daughter.
I have provided you with the citations and quotes from the annals. These annals state that Tea was the daughter of Lugaid > son of Ith > son of Breogan > & etc. How then could she be a daughter of Zedekiah? Show me a citation from the annals which state that Tea was a daughter of Zedekiah.
These annals state that Ollam Fodhla and Simon Breac ruled as kings over Ireland and that their respective reigns were separated by hundreds of years. How then could they have come to Ireland together? Show me a citation from the annals which state that Ollam Fodhla and Simon Breac came to Ireland together (and in the company of Tea).
To cut to the chase, there are indeed numerous contra-indications to Jeremiah/etal. being Ollam Fodhla/etal. in the annals and I have provided specific citations and quotes from these annals so that anyone can see it for themselves. Why don't you now show me any citation from these annals that supports the conjecture that Ollam Fodhla, Simon Breac and Tea were actually Jeremiah, Baruch and a daughter of Zedekiah.
quote:
WT:
My sources correct the errors of your sources, especially the dating and the identification of who Ollamh Fodhla, Breac, and Tea actually is.
What sources? What words can I use to explain this to you? Someone saying that Jeremiah/etal. was actually Ollam Fodhla/etal. is not a source. The source would be the text from which they allegedly obtained this information. Yet this, the source citation, is precisely what is never provided. And again, why is this so? If there is some text in the annals that support the supposition that Jeremiah/etal. was actually Ollam Fodhla/etal. then cite it. If you cannot cite it then you have no source; just some people talking.
quote:
WT:
http://asis.com/~stag/jerrytea.html
Here again, this is not a source. As you have yourself said, this site gets its information from Dr. Scott who allegedly gets his information from sources, such as the annals of Ireland. It is the source text I want to read, not someone's interpretation of unreferenced material.
The only allusion to any source material on this site is the verse taken from the "Forward" of "Watchman What of the Dawn". Since the verse is unreferenced, the translation cannot be verified. However, giving the benefit of the doubt, this verse says nothing beyond what has already been stated, i.e. that a Tea married an Erimon in Spain.
Further, it also indicates that Tephi (Scota?) was a daughter of Pharaoh.
quote:
WT:
Remember the evidence I mentioned, that God would supply us to confirm Jeremiah's trip? The following picture is of an inscription found in a tomb located in Schiabhla-Cailliche, near Oldcastle, County, Meath, Ireland, not far from Tara. Thirty-some stones with strange markings upon them, lie in the sepulchral chamber within the huge cairn of stones which make up the tomb. A large carved stone outside the tomb is till pointed out as Jeremiah's judicial seat. Our confirmation lies on those thirty stones in the cairn.
One interperation, by George Dansie of Bristol, says the the stones show a Lunar Eclipse, in the constellation of Taurus and a conjunction of the planets Saturn and Jupiter in Virgo. The prow of a ship is shown in the center, with five lines indicating the number of passengers it carries. On the left, a part of the ship, perhaps the stern, is shown with only four passengers, one having been left behind, as indicated by the line falling away from the ship. The wavy line indicates the passage of the ship across the ocean, terminating at a central point on an island.
The stellar and planetary alignment of the inscription gives a date of 583 BC.
Note: "One interpretation . . . "
For those who don't follow links, here is a reproduction of this picture:
Words cannot express how underwhelmed I am by that interpretation of this picture. The so-called "boat with five passengers" looks a bit like Scorpio to me.
quote:
Previously posted by Amlodhi
Thus, according to the Annals of the Irish Liber Britannicus, the Saxon's derived from Saxo and the Britons derived from Britus. Note that Saxo and Britus are here recorded as descendants of Japeth.
quote:
Reply from WT:
This does not contradict much less refute anything that I have argued except the Bible says the descent is from Shem.
Of course it contradicts what you have argued. And nowhere does the bible say that the Britons and/or Saxons were descendents of Shem.
quote:
WT:
Prince Brutus was a descendant of Zara, he founded New Troy/London.
What, no source text citation?
quote:
WT:
I think you need to address what the Bible says because as it sits now you are asserting any and all source, whether major or obscure to carry more weight than scripture.
As I said, I will be happy to discuss the biblical literature with you. What I won't let you do is read an unsubstantiated (and, so far, actually contra-indicated) interpretation of the annals of Ireland into ambiguous biblical passages.
IOW, if you can't cite the text in the annals that identify Tea as a daughter of Zedekiah, then neither can you claim that one of "the king's daughters" of Jeremiah chapter 41 is Tea.
Rambling around all over the place and C&Ping copious unreferenced website blurbs will get us nowhere. And I have no intention to participate in a wearying exercise in futility. Thus, if you are really interested in examining this question, we must stick with each point until it can be established whether or not that given point is valid.
The point at hand is whether or not the texts of the annals of Ireland support the contention that Ollam Fodhla/Simon Breac/Tea were one and the same with Jeremiah/Baruch/& a daughter of Zedekiah. So far, all of the annals that I have read, and the quotes from these annals that I have provided, strongly indicate that they were not.
At this juncture, then, your task is clear cut. Provide specific citations to the texts of the annals which indicate that Jeremiah/etal. were Ollam Fodhla/etal. If you fail to do that, then you have no foundation to claim the annals as a supporting source. Once this is established, we can then move on to the next point.
Awaiting those citations from the annals,
Amlodhi
This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 09-11-2004 04:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-08-2004 8:47 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by MangyTiger, posted 09-11-2004 9:11 PM Amlodhi has replied
 Message 238 by MangyTiger, posted 09-11-2004 9:12 PM Amlodhi has not replied
 Message 244 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-21-2004 11:51 PM Amlodhi has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6374 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 237 of 337 (141669)
09-11-2004 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Amlodhi
09-11-2004 5:22 PM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Amlodhi writes:
From reading back through Mangy Tiger's posts, I don't think he means to say that "Tea" was non-existent per-se. Only that a "Tea Tephi" (especially as you had described her), was non-existent in the annals.
At the moment I only have time to scan the forums to keep up to date and post quick replies, but Amlodhi is correct.
If you follow the links in my message Message 195 the assertion is that Tea and Tephi are two seperate people. They both exist in the annals, although Tephi is only mentioned briefly.
My key point is that "Tea Tephi" as described in the lineage chart provided does not exist. She was created by a member of the British-Israel-World Federation. This organisation has since admitted the error they created and propogated.
Talking solely about the claim that the British Royal Family is descended from King David, there is a break in the supplied lineage and so the claim is refuted.
I hope this clears up any ambiguity I may have inadvertantly created

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Amlodhi, posted 09-11-2004 5:22 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Amlodhi, posted 09-12-2004 1:11 AM MangyTiger has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6374 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 238 of 337 (141671)
09-11-2004 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Amlodhi
09-11-2004 5:22 PM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Duplicate post deleted.
This message has been edited by MangyTiger, 09-11-2004 08:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Amlodhi, posted 09-11-2004 5:22 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 337 (141707)
09-12-2004 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by MangyTiger
09-11-2004 9:11 PM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Hi MangyTiger,
Thanks for the summation. That is precisely what I understood to be your position.
Your further point is also well taken and, although WT will undoubtedly distance himself from the BIWF, their retraction on this point is, nonetheless, significant in the extreme.
Simply put, if they could by any stretch make the text of the annals support the Tea connection, they wouldn't be retracting the claim.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by MangyTiger, posted 09-11-2004 9:11 PM MangyTiger has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6374 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 240 of 337 (143035)
09-18-2004 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Cold Foreign Object
09-05-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Refuting the Royal Family lineage claim
Hello again WILLOWTREE.
quote:
She is a myth.
If Tea Tephi never existed the claimed line of descent from King David to the current Queen is broken. I stand by my contention that your claim has been refuted.
You are simply asserting contrary to the evidence.
If Biblical veracity was not at stake the point would of been accepted while yawning.
I think we're talking somewhat at cross purposes here. My specific claim is that the Royal Family claim is refuted in terms of the only direct evidence provided, namely the lineage chart. In this context Biblical veracity is neither here nor there.
I will try and break my argument down into a series of small chunks. If you can show an error in my reasoning then I will cheerfully retract my claim
  • You have made a claim that Queen Elizabeth II is directly descended from King David.
  • To substantiate this claim you must, by definition, be able to provide a genealogy chart showing the unbroken parent/child links from King David to Queen Elizabeth II.
  • The genealogy chart is essential to the claim. Although there may be other supporting evidence - including Biblical references - unless you can provide and substantiate a genealogy chart your claim falls.
  • For any genealogy chart relating to an individual to be accepted all entries must be verifiable.
  • A genealogy chart has been supplied (Message 170). Although you did not supply it you have indicated you agree with it (Message 175).
  • This genealogy chart includes an entry for an individual called Tea Tephi.
  • Tea Tephi is listed as the first entry in the 'KINGS OF IRELAND' part of the genealogy chart.
  • The definitive (only ?) sources in terms of Irish kings, queens, chieftans etc. are the Annals.
  • In Message 195 I supplied links to a website which contains a scanned in article from a Britsh-Israel-World Federation (BIWF) publication called Crown and Commonwealth.
  • This BIWF article states that one of their members created Tea Tephi from two distinct individuals (Tea and Tephi) who are both referred to in the Annals.
  • If Tea Tephi was a fictional person created in the late 19th. Century by someone in Britain then clearly the reference to them in the supplied genealogy chart is wrong.
  • If the genealogy chart is wrong the Royal Family lineage claim is refuted.
If you can see a flaw in this reasoning then let me know and I will try to address it.
Without wishing to make your response any easier I can see two easy ways you could blow my argument out of the water :
  • If you can show from the original source (the Annals) a reference to Tea Tephi.
  • If you can find a reference to Tea Tephi in any material that predates the mid to late 19th. Century (the period when the BWIF say one of their members created Tea Tephi).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-05-2004 5:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2004 7:45 PM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 251 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-23-2004 3:32 PM MangyTiger has replied

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