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Author Topic:   Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 256 of 305 (203912)
04-30-2005 8:15 AM


Virgin Battle Cease Fire
Ladies and Gentlemen,
We have clearly made our point to Faith, who does not wish to concede that "almah" as used in Isaiah 7:14 does not mean a pre-sexual woman.
So, as I stated in Message 220, whether "almah" means pre-sexual or not is a moot point if Faith or any other Christian cannot show the following:
1. If "almah" means pre-sexual, then explain why it did not mean pre-sexual for the woman in the time of Ahaz and we didn't have two virgin births.
2. If (as you have stated before) the verse containing "almah" was not for Ahaz at all, then how does the prophecy make sense for Ahaz without that verse? Also what signifies that the line was not for Ahaz?
3. Please explain how the rest of the prophecy, as I asked in Message 200 was fulfilled by Jesus in his early boyhood.
4. If (as you stated in Message 221) that this is a case of a double fulfillment prophecy, then you need to explain how it was also filled completely by Jesus, and what signifies that it is to be filled again.
4. To date neither you nor any other Christian has shown me that God intended prophecies to have double fulfillment.
So I'm waving the white flag and asking that we cease with the Virgin Battle and see if Faith or another Christian (who believes in double fulfillments) can show that God intended double fulfillments and that Jesus fulfilled the rest of the prophecy written in the time of Ahaz.
We don't have many posts left before the shutdown mark of 300. Please make your posts count.
Thanks
PurpleDawn

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 257 of 305 (203927)
04-30-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by arachnophilia
04-30-2005 2:56 AM


Re: General Specific.
Arachnophilia writes:
"parthenos" is most often used to render "betulah" and not "almah"
this basically would make the isaiah usage one of two things:
1. a mistake, or inconsistent rendering (we're arguing variations of this point) or:
2. an accurate rendering of an earlier text.
Good argument but IMO:
  • There was no simple choice of words to translate whatever was originally written.
  • Parthenos is NOT primarily understood to mean 'virgin.'
  • The definition of virgin has changed since publication of the Vulgate. And ...
  • Our opponents don't seem to appreciate the significance of bethulah versus almah.
Before we leave this I'd like to share what the notably conservative Dr. Strong has to say about "parthenos."
quote:
a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter; Word #3933 Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
And that's it. No equivocation. No doctrinal argument. Just good-old-fashioned scholarship. Gotta love it!
This entire discussion has pointed up the truth written by the grandson of Jesus Ben Sirach, who said:
quote:
"... the fact is that you cannot find an equivalent for things originally written in Hebrew when you come to translate them into another language; ..." From the translator's forward to Ecclesiasticus, 132 BC
And this more recent comment:
quote:
"Almah doesn't have a simple Greek equivilant." Virgin Birth
it's quite possible the text originally said "betulah" in isaiah 7:14. but there's no real way to know for sure.
however, even if it does, it's still not the point of the prophesy, nor can it apply to jesus.
I must agree, of course.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

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 Message 254 by arachnophilia, posted 04-30-2005 2:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 258 of 305 (203949)
04-30-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by doctrbill
04-30-2005 9:55 AM


Double Fulfillment
I don't think the intent of Isaiah 7:14 was to describe a woman who was to become pregnant without human sperm.
If Christians believe that this is the intent, then there were two "virgin" births, otherwise they need to explain why the word has one meaning for Ahaz and a different future meaning.
They have yet to provide evidence of God's support for this double meaning rational or double fulfillment.
That is what I want them to explain. If you've noticed, they would rather argue word meanings until their fingers ache and avoid the real issue.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by doctrbill, posted 04-30-2005 9:55 AM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 4:51 AM purpledawn has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 259 of 305 (203954)
04-30-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by purpledawn
04-30-2005 8:15 AM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
Personally, I don't see how a 'double fullfillment' can be meaningful at all, if the 'double fullfillment' can only be reconised to be after the fact. I don't see how one phrase, taken out of context, can be a fullfillment of a prophecy also.

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 Message 261 by doctrbill, posted 04-30-2005 1:51 PM ramoss has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 305 (203957)
04-30-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by purpledawn
04-30-2005 8:15 AM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
I would like to add that there is one other factor which must be considered in any of our discussions of Biblical interpretations. That factor is that there is not one moment of translation and interpretation but rather a series of such actions.
Each time this happens it is done within the constraints of two (or more) differing languages, two (or more) differing cultures and two (or more) differing epochs.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 261 of 305 (203958)
04-30-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ramoss
04-30-2005 12:34 PM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
To Ramoss:
HELP!
Pardon my interjection, but did you not post a list of possible Greek terms which might indicate a pre-sexual condition? I'm sure I saw such a list on this thread but try as I might, I have not been able to relocate it.
To Purple Dawn:
I agree that we should return to the more substantive aspects of the controversy: i.e. Whether Jesus fulfilled the requirements of Isaiah's prophecy. I must say, however, that I have learned a thing or two from our word study.
This is not the first time this subject has been discussed hereabouts, and I am predicting that our esteemed opponents would rather eat dirt than let go the prejudice they bought from the Christian Propaganda Network.
db

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 305 (204052)
05-01-2005 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
04-30-2005 1:11 PM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
I would like to add that there is one other factor which must be considered in any of our discussions of Biblical interpretations. That factor is that there is not one moment of translation and interpretation but rather a series of such actions.
Each time this happens it is done within the constraints of two (or more) differing languages, two (or more) differing cultures and two (or more) differing epochs
Lotta insinuation there, no fact.
You appear to be implying that that would result in different meanings over the years, but I'm sorry to inform you that that notion has already been soundly put to rest with the Dead Sea Scrolls, discussed at length on another recent thread, which see, which have proved beyond a doubt that our current Old Testament texts are identical in meaning to those in the DSS, proving that for over 2000 years there has been no slippage in meaning whatever since then. This is not only true for the Hebrew texts we have today but for the English translations, which may have gone through Latin and German to get to English, but they nevertheless still say what a recent English translation direct from the DSS Isaiah scroll says, as a post by Monk on that thread demonstrates.
QED.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 04-30-2005 1:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 05-01-2005 12:07 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 305 (204053)
05-01-2005 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by doctrbill
04-30-2005 1:51 PM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
Pardon my interjection, but did you not post a list of possible Greek terms which might indicate a pre-sexual condition? I'm sure I saw such a list on this thread but try as I might, I have not been able to relocate it.
There are online English-Greek dictionaries. Here's one: http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon/
Put in "virgin." It comes up "parthenos" for ancient Greek, and "parthena" for modern Greek.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by doctrbill, posted 04-30-2005 1:51 PM doctrbill has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 305 (204055)
05-01-2005 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by arachnophilia
04-30-2005 2:56 AM


Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
now, keep mind that the septuagint is older than the masoretic. and i know of another instance where masoretic text actually makes no sense, but the septuagint says something different that does, and it's one word difference. so somewhere in the ~400 years between texts, a word here and there HAS been changed. it's quite possible the text originally said "betulah" in isaiah 7:14. but there's no real way to know for sure.
Possible schmossible. Since when is such conjecture acceptable on this forum? Only when I'm not the one doing it, right?
On second thought, however, that's a very interesting conjecture. Are you saying that a less ambiguous word for "virgin" might have been originally present? Or is "betulah" less ambiguous to you? It's hard to know with all these words since all of them appear to have shades of meaning depending on context.
Anyway the idea of such a big change is preposterous given the actual record of the ancient manuscripts in existence. There were also fragments of the Septuagint found with the DSS and no error anywhere near as significant as the change of betulah to almah has been found in ANY manuscript. Almah is in all the extant Hebrew manuscripts in Isaiah 7:14 and parthenos is in all the extant Septuagint manuscripts for Isaiah 7:14. And in EVERY language those have been translated into, from Latin to Syrian to German to English etc. etc. etc. the word has been translated to mean a girl without sexual experience.
Yes, for the umpteenth time, parthenos can sometimes be translated in other ways besides virgin. But if you look up virgin in a Greek dictionary you will get ONLY parthenos / parthena, and that's the meaning it has been given when translated into all the languages from the Greek.
In other words, translators consistently read parthenos as virgin for 2000 years, until recent unspiritual translators decided they can't hack the idea of a virgin birth and chose one of the other meanings for both almah and parthenos, and yes you also have that option. You can all congratulate yourselves on finding a loophole that allows you to contradict 2000 years of Church scholarship. Nevertheless our reading is just as reasonable and it has those 2000 years of authority yours doesn't.
Since the Christian church has understood it for 2000 years to mean never-having-known-a-man, and the texts have remained consistent lo these many millennia, I think it's really time you nitpickers gave it a rest. But I know you won't. A virgin birth just doesn't sit right with you guys.
I just had to answer a few posts here before I retire for good.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-01-2005 05:25 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-01-2005 05:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by doctrbill, posted 05-01-2005 10:45 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 305 (204056)
05-01-2005 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by purpledawn
04-30-2005 12:07 PM


Re: Double Fulfillment
They have yet to provide evidence of God's support for this double meaning rational or double fulfillment.
That is what I want them to explain. If you've noticed, they would rather argue word meanings until their fingers ache and avoid the real issue.
I have not had time to study the commentaries as I said I needed to, but here they are in undigested form for whatever it's worth to you. If nothing, then nothing.
Fausset says there is a double fulfillment of the Ahaz passage
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
Matthew Henry:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
Chuck Smith outline:
CHAPTER 7: Confederacy, the Sign of the Virgin's Son, and Invasion of Judah.
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
v.1-9 God promises Judah will not be ruined by the confederacy of Rezin and Pekah.
Isaiah contains two-fold prophecies that have an immediate and distant fulfillment.
v.13-14 Isaiah wrote of things he did not understand, but he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit interprets (in Mt. 1:23) this to be the prophecy fulfilled through the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
v.17-20 God will raise up another kingdom, Assyria, to invade and destroy Syria.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-01-2005 05:08 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 05-01-2005 7:48 AM Faith has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 266 of 305 (204062)
05-01-2005 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
05-01-2005 4:51 AM


Re: Double Fulfillment
Those commentaries do not show evidence that God expects people to find double meanings in some prophecies and not in others.
They do not explain how God expects people to understand our favorite verse in Isaiah as one thing for the time of Ahaz and another centuries later.
IOW, what is the clue that the verses are to be understood differently?
God does not say or infer that portions of prophecies will have a double meaning centuries away from the original.
You haven't shown me otherwise.
All you've shown me is what Christianity claims.
I am asking Christianity to back up that claim.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 4:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 267 of 305 (204087)
05-01-2005 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
05-01-2005 4:42 AM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
It has been shown here, more than once, that the words almah, parthenos, and virgin, are ambivalent at best. ONLY bethulah has shown itself to be unequivocal.
You have also been shown that the implication of parthenos is: "an unmarried daughter" STRONG'S CONCORDANCE
Yes, for the umpteenth time, parthenos can sometimes be translated in other ways besides virgin.
... translators consistently read parthenos as virgin for 2000 years,
First parthenos can be translated other ways, then it is "consistently" translated as virgin? Do you really know what you want to say? You are hung up on these two words as if they were equivalent, but they are not.
... recent unspiritual translators decided they can't hack the idea of a virgin birth and chose one of the other meanings for both almah and parthenos,
The meanings they have chosen are the primary meanings. Only bethulah directly reveals one's sexual experience (or lack of it). You simply cannot lay the modern connotation of 'virgin' on the ancient text and expect to come out with the truth.
You can all congratulate yourselves on finding a loophole that allows you to contradict 2000 years of Church scholarship.
Nevertheless our reading is just as reasonable and it has those 2000 years of authority yours doesn't.
The authority of which you speak is Christian, primarily Roman Catholic. Jewish authority never acknowledged the 'virgin birth.' Saint John never acknowledged the 'virgin birth.' Saint Paul never acknowledged the 'virgin birth.' in fact, Paul asserted that Jesus was born the naturall way "according to the flesh." But then, John and Paul could read Isaiah in the Hebrew, while Matthew and Luke, apparently could not.
The 'virgin birth' doctrine turns on the definition of a single word. And that word does NOT mean what you want it to mean. There is no other, scholarly, reason to believe.
You WANT to believe, so you believe.
db

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 4:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 3:26 PM doctrbill has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 305 (204100)
05-01-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
05-01-2005 4:24 AM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
You appear to be implying that that would result in different meanings over the years, but I'm sorry to inform you that that notion has already been soundly put to rest with the Dead Sea Scrolls, discussed at length on another recent thread, which see, which have proved beyond a doubt that our current Old Testament texts are identical in meaning to those in the DSS, proving that for over 2000 years there has been no slippage in meaning whatever since then
Sorry but that is simply an incorrect statement. If I am mistaken please show where we have even discussed the content of the DSS. What you have asserted is that the copy of Isaiah found in the DSS is similar but not identical to copies of Isaiah in circulation today. That says nothing about any document other than Isaiah.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 4:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 305 (204104)
05-01-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by purpledawn
05-01-2005 7:48 AM


Please
All you've shown me is what Christianity claims.
What SOME Christians claim. In fact, the sermon this morning was on "How the Church Corporate should make decisions". Three steps were outlined, prayer for guidance, use of the brains GOD gave you, and the third was to examine scripture. But Scripture alone was most definitely ruled out. One concrete point was that so many issues were simply not addressed in scripture and that so much scripture has been simply lost.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 05-01-2005 7:48 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 270 of 305 (204124)
05-01-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by doctrbill
04-30-2005 1:51 PM


Re: Virgin Battle Cease Fire
I beleive it is 'Virgo' is the greek term meaning Virgin. It also is the name of the Goddess of Purity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by doctrbill, posted 04-30-2005 1:51 PM doctrbill has replied

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