Noah's Flood Came Down. It's Goin Back Up!!

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It looks like Admin has been part of the problem. Could someone please remind us how the diversion into prophecy ties into the thread's topic?

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1. The premises for my belief that this vapor canopy will return is based on Biblical prophecy.2. The visible trend toward the fulfillment of some of the prophecies discussed is significant in that this trend has not been visible until recent decades, that is the global warming, increase in fires, disasters, and overall climatic changes which the links I have cited verify.3. Other fulfilled prophecies have enforced my belief that this will happen.4. Unfulfilled prophecy concerning coming climatic changes for the new messianic millenium are indicative of this happening, imo. So without the discussion of prophecy, this thread would be dead. If you wish to move it to another segment to suit you, that's fine with me. I know you likely feel it's hard to mix the natural science with the supernatural science, but this is a lot about whether the supernatural exists and if it does exist as a reality, scientists will sooner or later have to accept it as such and factor it in. So far, I believe the prophecies are on track.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-02-2003]

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The topic was started on a prophetic note. Strange as it seems, this diversion into prophecy is pretty much on topic for THIS discussion of Noah's flood.

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Buzsaw also reoutlined the topic intent in message 55. And this is in the "The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.I, like John, think the current discussion has been on topic. Minnemooseus did take part in the "Red Sea/Reed Sea" off-topic digression earlier in this string.Adminnemooseus

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Crashfrog has already replied to this, but I wanted to point out that what keeps water vapor aloft in clouds and what keeps satellites aloft in orbit are completely different things. Just as a hot air balloon rises because the hot air inside the balloon is less dense than the surrounding air, water vapor rises in the atmosphere when it is less dense than the surrounding air. When it is more dense than the surrounding air then it descends to the ground and is called fog, which is actually just low flying clouds. Clouds are not in orbit.

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I understand that, but with the amount of heat indicated in the prophecies, it would seem that the vapor would rise higher than has been yet observed. The higher it rises the thinner and finer it would get and the less dense it would get if it should spread out in a much more expansive stratosphere or middle atmosphere. I understand when the stratosphere is reached, the temperature actually rises and once the vapor gets to that, it seems it could rise more, or at least tend to hang there rather than to return to the cooler atmosphere.If and when this is accomplished, the vapor canopy would likely tend to normalize the excessive heat that caused it to rise.

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The atmosphere can only hold so much water.

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But wouldn't that depend on how much heat is in the atmosphere and on earth?

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you ignored the math about the asteroid in a previous message, so I think perhaps you'd prefer to stay away from math, so I won't do it.

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Under unprecedented conditions as I have indicated in the prophecies, the math applicable to present conditions would not work anyhow, would they?

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I understand that, but with the amount of heat indicated in the prophecies, it would seem that the vapor would rise higher than has been yet observed.

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Water vapor has been found in deep space. How much higher do you want? At first reading of this message, I thought you were arguing for the evaporation of the planet's water. This could happen if the temperatures grew hot enough. Global warming isn't going to do it though. It would take, say, a change in the Sun's temperature.But then the following left me perplexed:

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If and when this is accomplished, the vapor canopy would likely tend to normalize the excessive heat that caused it to rise.

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If the water boils off, there isn't going to be a canopy. The water will escape into deep space. That is the only way you could get rid of the oceans. The atmosphere won't hold that much water. You also seem to want a 'normal' world after this catastrophe. I'm thinking perhaps, a second Garden of Eden? Well, if you boil off the oceans, you won't be left with that either. Think: Mars.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Sure it will! Just heat the whole atmosphere to 700 degrees F and it'll hold a bunch, just like it did right before the Big Flood! Of course, oxygen will only make up a fractional percent of that, but hey, if that didn't bother Noah, why should it bother us? And that 3000 psi atmospheric pressure won't be a problem, either.

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Sure it will! Just heat the whole atmosphere to 700 degrees F and it'll hold a bunch, just like it did right before the Big Flood!

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Heated to 700° the atmosphere will hold how much exactly?What I am thinking is that temperatures high enough to allow that much water to be suspended in the atmosphere would also be high enough that water would be flying right out of the atmosphere, and thus, not suspended in the atmosphere. Of course, I suppose we need to ask Buzsaw how much water, exactly, is supposed to be soon suspended overhead.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Based on vapor pressure, it would hold about 9000 times as much as it would hold right now at worldwide 100% humidity. That's not even remotely enough to hold all the water in the oceans. 100% humidity at 70 degrees F is about 2.5% by weight water, so that 9000 times is 225 times the weight of our current atmosphere. IIRC, the hydrosphere is another couple of orders of magnitude more massive yet.
Buzsaw, I think you will find it difficult to come up with any mechanism to suspend any significant volume of water up above the surface while still allowing for life down here. The only way to put more water vapor up there is to increase the vapor pressure of water: the only way to do that is to heat it. And even if you find a miraculous way to suspend it all, how well do you think we'd like at atmospheric pressure a few hundred times today's? How did the pre-Noah folks cope with that?

There were oceans, rivers, lakes and underground waters before the flood, but smaller and shallower oceans. That's what seems to come from the data added up in scripture. So there would still be significant water on earth, but with the smoother surface of the earth, earth's continents would again be connected and the vapor upstairs would result from evaporation. And yes, according to the text, the "angel" causes something to happen to the sun to heat up the earth, but not to the extent that all on earth die. The prophet Isaiah said "few men would be left upon earth;" something to that effect.

Having read the last couple of posts, I have to apologise to the admin and everyone else - I said that we were getting off topic talking about the forest fires and all, and I was wrong. Sorry guys.I've been wondering - what if the Bible prophets were talking about the Snowball Earth Hypothesis? Supposedly it happened 600 million years ago - and it's possible it could happen again in the future.The Rock Hound

OK, buz, let's send only 1% of the present volume of water on earth into the "canopy". That's 1.3 x 10^19 kg that we're canpoizing, compared to 5.1 x 10^18 kg total for today's atmosphere. You are welcome to go through my calculations to check them:That's a 3.5-fold increase in total atmospheric mass. The new (or Noachian) atmospheric pressure would be 52 pounds per square inch, compared to the current 14.7. Oxygen content would go down from 21% to 6%. The contribution of water vapor pressure to total pressure would be 37 psi. This must correspond to a global atmospheric temperature of 262 degrees F, much more comfortable than 700 degrees, but still a little too warm for Eden-like or idyllic, don't you think?
And that's only 1% ......

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I've been wondering - what if the Bible prophets were talking about the Snowball Earth Hypothesis? Supposedly it happened 600 million years ago - and it's possible it could happen again in the future.

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All I can say to that is:1. The global, I say global (not necessarily local) trend overall is warmer.
2. The prophets definitely aren't talking frozen earth.

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OK, buz, let's send only 1% of the present volume of water on earth into the "canopy". That's 1.3 x 10^19 kg that we're canpoizing, compared to 5.1 x 10^18 kg total for today's atmosphere. You are welcome to go through my calculations to check them:
That's a 3.5-fold increase in total atmospheric mass. The new (or Noachian) atmospheric pressure would be 52 pounds per square inch, compared to the current 14.7. Oxygen content would go down from 21% to 6%. The contribution of water vapor pressure to total pressure would be 37 psi. This must correspond to a global atmospheric temperature of 262 degrees F, much more comfortable than 700 degrees, but still a little too warm for Eden-like or idyllic, don't you think?
And that's only 1% ......

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But once the heated vapor reaches the warmer stratosphere, wouldn't it warm the stratosphere and who knows how high it would go? I don't think your calculations can possibly factor in all the data, as no one knows what that data is but God. My assumption in this thread has always been that there is the supernatural factor, though much of what will happen prophecy wise is effected by things like the industrial revolution, technology and a relatively immoral and apostate world. (This is generalized and referring to prophecy in general pertaining to the "last days" of the ages of Gentile kingdoms.)

Buzsaw do you know what the Snowball Earth Hypothesis actually is?The aftermath of a Snowball Earth event is the only instance I know of where you would get something similar to what you've been talking about.Here's a great article in the Scientific American:
http://www.sciam.com...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}Torrential rain, elevated temperatures, excessive carbon dioxide and water vapour in the atmosphere... this sound familiar to anyone?The Rock Hound------------------
"Science constantly poses questions, where religion can only shout about answers."[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 06-04-2003]

It makes no difference "how high it goes" - if it's still gravitationally bound to the Earth, the pressures and temperatures I figured will still apply by any rules of physics I've ever seen. The data is very simple: 1% of the oceans as vapor leads to an atmosphere that's mostly steam.
If you want to bring in the supernatural, be my guest, but be sure to allow for the possibility that the Invisible Pink Unicorn (praise be unto Her Holy Hooves!) is pulling the strings instead of your Sky Guy.

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Buzsaw do you know what the Snowball Earth Hypothesis actually is?
The aftermath of a Snowball Earth event is the only instance I know of where you would get something similar to what you've been talking about.

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Here's a great article in the Scientific American:
Scientific American: Science News, Expert Analysis, Health Research - Scientific American...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}

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Torrential rain, elevated temperatures, excessive carbon dioxide and water vapour in the atmosphere... this sound familiar to anyone?

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The Rock Hound

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This pasted from the link:

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January 2000 issue
Snowball Earth
Ice entombed our planet hundreds of millions of years ago, and complex animals evolved in the greenhouse heat wave that followed...

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Howdy dudy n wowdy dowdy!! Talk about a problematic imaginary dream up. At least my story has a supernatural mind capable of making it happen. The folks that dream up this stuff and the ones who believe it are the ones of wild faith and imagination. Imagine, it's all froze up, it thaws it's self out, cooks itself up n out pops all this intricate, complex, orderly, beautiful amazing life. Smother the story in eons of time and lualla, you got a following. Aaaaaamazing!!Scientific American sure knows how to out do the National Inquirer. I guess I'll stick with the Bible and it's track record, thanks.
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"Science constantly poses questions, where religion can only shout about answers."