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Author Topic:   Evolution is Not Science
Jet
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 270 (6973)
03-16-2002 1:11 AM


While evolutionists are quite fond of parroting the phrase, "Creation Science isn't science", they insist that the theory of evolution is true science. I question how many evolutionists would disagree with the following.
**********************************************************************
[1] Genuine science is objective and invites scrutiny and investigation.
[1a]It does not ridicule the critics of its conclusions, but instead silences their criticisms by setting forth the evidence from which those conclusions are drawn
[2] Genuine science seeks the truth that explains the observed evidence.
[2a]It does not prejudice the investigation by ruling out, from the start, hypotheses that may very well provide the best explanation for the observed evidence.
[3] Genuine science rejects any hypothesis that consistently fails to fit observed scientific evidence.
[3a]It does not persistently assume that the fault lies in the evidence rather than in the hypothesis itself.
**********************************************************************
I have long claimed that the TOE is anything but true science. In reality it is nothing more than a rehash of very old pagan religious beliefs, with a few new twists thrown in for good measure.
At {Sitestar Internet Operations | }, the website source for material quoted throughout this post, the material made available would seem to be in agreement with me that evolution is not a true science but is indeed a system of religious beliefs, when we insist upon using the accepted definition of science. Below are futher comments from the same site.
**********************************************************************
.......Evolution, disguised as a viable scientific theory, is actually a tool of religious propaganda and cultural domination, used by those who hold to the religion of Naturalism.
**********************************************************************
Now, while evolutionists would prefer to deny the ancient beginings of their religious beliefs, history cannot be denied. The religion of naturalism, or evolution, is older than nearly every recognized religious belief in practice today. It has been slightly modified to fit in with todays mindset, but its' basic tenets remain intact.
**********************************************************************
Naturalism is the belief that all things, including the origin of life, can be explained purely in terms of natural phenomena, without the intervention of a supernatural being or deity. Ironically, many of the dogmatic proponents of Evolution may not even be aware that this is the religion they hold. Most seem unable to distinguish their religion from their "science", and thus pursue their opposition to a Creator on what they suppose are purely "scientific" grounds.
One of the most glaring evidences that Evolution is unscientific is the refusal of its proponents to respond to its critics in a fair-handed way. Instead, critics of Evolution are subjected to scorn and ridicule, and dismissed as mental midgets or religious crackpots. When the Evolutionist says that life originated without the intervention of a supernatural Being, he is making a religious assertion, not a scientific one. The fact that he may be a scientist by profession, or that he conducts his science in light of this presuppostion does not change the fact that it is a religious claim. It is no more "scientific" than the Creationist's assertion of an intervening Creator.
**********************************************************************
In this thread, I will present articles that confirm the religious nature of the evolutionary beliefs as well as articles that show it is not the true science that it proponents claim it to be. This is not to say that scientific measures are never taken in the study of evolution, only that science is often abandoned, as it must be, to support many of the assertions made by evolutionists. Let us begin by having evolutionists comment on the following observation.
**********************************************************************
The Mechanisms of Evolution are Fatally Flawed.
Evolution makes great but empty claims that it is based upon scientific evidence. In reality, Evolution is based primarily upon hypothetical mechanisms for how life might have begun and developed complexity and function...
*Abiogenesis - the belief that life arose from non-living matter through random interactions among naturally-occurring chemicals,
*Random Mutation - a proposed mechanism of how new genetic material might have come into existence,
*Natural Selection - a proposed mechanism of how beneficial genetic traits are selected and preserved,
*Vast Periods of Time - the belief that the universe is billions of years old, and the naive assumption that that is sufficient time to work the Evolutionary miracles needed to turn "primordial soup" into the vast diversity of plants and animals existent today.
Evolutionists appeal to these hypothetical mechanisms in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of evolution as an explanation for the origin of life. Because of their natural depravity, many people find this an attractive alternative to the idea of a holy, all-powerful Creator. Having rejected the idea of a divine Creator from the outset, they readily suppose that any argument for the plausibility of Evolution constitutes proof of Evolution. But just how plausible are these hypothetical mechanisms of evolution? Could they really accomplish the fantastic feat of bringing modern-day life into existence purely by natural causes?
**********************************************************************
Let us refrain from the erroneous statement that evolution makes no attempt to deal with the origin of life via abiogenesis. By making this false claim, evolutionists show their deceptive bias while denying the mechanisms that demand recognition in order for the theory of evolution to even be plausible. Every idea has its beginning and the beginning of the evolutionary process is abiogenesis. To deny this fact is to shine the light of ignorance on an already flawed hypothesis. The study of the "origin of the species" must recognize its' starting point and learn to deal with it in an honest and open manner. No novel is regarded as being complete by removing the preface, introduction, and beginning chapters. Neither can the TOE be regarded as being complete by removing its causal beginnings. (We will ignore the absence of an explanation as to how the chemicals necessary for abiogenesis came into existance, for now anyway!) If you insist on claiming that the ToE makes no attempt to deal with how life arose, please begin your re-education at the following site,
{UCSD IT Service Portal - Information Technology}, which will help you to understand where you went wrong in your thought process. Once you have recognized that abiogenesis and the Toe are inextricably linked, you will be better equipped to accept the obvious flaws in the ToE that will be revealed in this continuing thread.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by quicksink, posted 03-16-2002 1:34 AM Jet has not replied
 Message 3 by LudvanB, posted 03-16-2002 2:01 AM Jet has not replied
 Message 12 by Cobra_snake, posted 03-16-2002 9:24 AM Jet has not replied
 Message 19 by edge, posted 03-16-2002 4:11 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 24 by TrueCreation, posted 03-16-2002 7:13 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 56 by KingPenguin, posted 03-17-2002 9:24 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 249 by jennacreationist, posted 06-24-2002 10:44 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 258 by Brad McFall, posted 07-12-2002 11:21 PM Jet has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 270 (6976)
03-16-2002 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jet
03-16-2002 1:11 AM


When I was very young, I launched an interesting campaign. When I was bored, I drew tiny lines on a piece of paper, and recorded the amount every 50 or so. After 3 years, with 10 pieces of paper, I came to a total of 50,000 marks, each mark a few seconds of time...
I was about 1/2 the way to 100,000, which is 1/10 of 1 million, which is one 100 times less than 100,000,000, which is 1/10 of 1 billion, which is roughly 1/4 of the total age of the earth.
Basically, if I wanted to write down the total number of years this ball of rock has been in existence, I would have to count 90000 times longer than I did just to get to the age of our planet. Another 270,000-360,000 times and I'll have the estimated age of the universe.
And all those marks- one year. A lot can happen in a year, and even more can happen in a billion of those years.
The problem today is that time, and numbers, for that matter, are trivialized. We here million, and even billion, all the time. they've become cliches- they've lost their power and meaning.
My point? Events that occur on the million and billion year time scale are well beyind human comprehension- because we witness so incredibly little during our life, we are in no place to judge the plausibility of eovlution.
Take a timeline of our universe, and identify the last 30000 years of human history, and you'll find that we are roughly the size of an atom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jet, posted 03-16-2002 1:11 AM Jet has not replied

Replies to this message:
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LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 270 (6979)
03-16-2002 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jet
03-16-2002 1:11 AM


Jet,thats exactly what i was saying to you earlier and you just go on proving my point...YECs dont debate other people because they do not proceed under the assumption that people can honnestly disagree with their literalists view of the world and of their bibles. To you guys,for someone to disagree,he/she must be either stupid/deceived or they must be evil. None of the posts you made thus far is anything more than a ridiculous attempt to preach your chosen gospel but in case someone failed to mention this to you,this board is a DISCUSSION board,not a preaching parlor. If i ever feel bored enough,i may go to a church and listen to sanctimonious drivel for an hour but when i come here,i expect to hear ARGUMENTS...not bablings of biblical quotation to gospelize us to bordom

This message is a reply to:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 270 (6980)
03-16-2002 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by quicksink
03-16-2002 1:34 AM


12345

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 270 (6981)
03-16-2002 2:43 AM


I have studied biology, and have covered alot on evolutionary theory, and I swear, I have yet to see the chapter on "morality and ethics based on the teachings of the church of evolution". I will be sure to check my biology texts. I might have missed it.
I also love how creationist continually try to prove creationism by disproving evolution. The crux of the problem really isn't even evolution. You really should be gripping with physics, astronomy, and geology. To even attempt to justify a creationist model, you must conclusivly invalidate whole swaths of scientific research in those fields.
The bible is an interesting collection of stories. Is there morality and ethics taught in it? Yes, but most of it is parables. There is nothing wrong with parables. They can be used very effeciently to teach. However, to try and take a parable as literal truth is quite strange. I still don't see why a literal interpretation is so important to literal fundamentalists. In fact, perhaps we should start a thread on this very subject.

Replies to this message:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 270 (6982)
03-16-2002 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by quicksink
03-16-2002 2:24 AM


Q&A
This site is interesting- it gives very simple and straight-forward responses to the most common issues raised by YECs.
http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~wmwines/WASP/creationist_arguments.html

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 270 (6983)
03-16-2002 2:46 AM


My view on the scientificity of the ToE by Common descent is that it is science, just as the YEC view is science. Though they both fall under their own frameworks of interperetation, the Old earther falls under uniformitarianism, and the Young earther falls under catastrophism. Both are scientific, and both attempt an explination for todays diversity in life and geologic stata and composition through a process of one sort or another. Following these concepts we must percieve that there is now no absolute or truth to either one to any degree higher than the other accept by interperetation.
------------------

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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 270 (6986)
03-16-2002 2:47 AM


123

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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 270 (6988)
03-16-2002 2:55 AM


The evidence for an old earth is overwhelming. Not only do dating methods indicate a very, very old earth, but starlight is a certain indication of a billion year old universe (this light is usually dismissed by creationists- unscientific as this dismissal may be)
To the extent our intellectual capabilities, humans have drawn the concclusion that evolution, which, let us not deny, occurs, took millions of years.
On the other hand, the creationists dismiss evolution, but use evolution to keep the number of animals on the ark to a minimal.
the creationists have no answer to polar-flips, or at least not that I know of- their beliefs are shrouded in myths and conspiracies, like the NASA "missing day" incident, or Dr. Humphrey's "calculations".
Very few creationists, with exception of some on this board, understand the fundamentals of science, and thus grow a naive doubt over its credibility.
the fact is, the old earth model is very consistent- it rarely stumbles or slips.

  
The Barbarian
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 31
From: Dallas, TX US
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 10 of 270 (6992)
03-16-2002 7:06 AM


YE creationism is a religion, because it depends on faith, not evidence.
Evolution, of course is a phenomenon, for which evolutionary theory is the best available explanation. And since the men who first proposed the presently accepted theory of evolution (Darwin and Wallace) were Christians, the idea that it was an atheistic plot is laughable. Darwin later became an agnostic, but Wallace remained a devoted Christian all his life.
All of science is methodologically naturalistic. It merely assumes that science can only understand the physical universe, without making any assumptions that the physical universe is all there is. Because of that, scientists can do science, and still be theists.
As most of us are.

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 270 (6993)
03-16-2002 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by TrueCreation
03-16-2002 2:46 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
My view on the scientificity of the ToE by Common descent is that it is science, just as the YEC view is science. Though they both fall under their own frameworks of interperetation, the Old earther falls under uniformitarianism, and the Young earther falls under catastrophism. Both are scientific, and both attempt an explination for todays diversity in life and geologic stata and composition through a process of one sort or another. Following these concepts we must percieve that there is now no absolute or truth to either one to any degree higher than the other accept by interperetation.

If creation 'science' is scientific, please provide testable hypothese, positive evidence, and potential falsifications.
So far, this hasn't been done, despite numerous requests.
If it's real science, then it should be easy to find lots of this sort of thing on the major Creationist websites such as AiG and ICR.
Science never makes a claim to absolute truth.
Creation 'science' is based upon the Bible, and spends much of it's time attempting to refute another theory instead of developing it's own.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 270 (6998)
03-16-2002 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jet
03-16-2002 1:11 AM


"[1] Genuine science is objective and invites scrutiny and investigation.
[1a]It does not ridicule the critics of its conclusions, but instead silences their criticisms by setting forth the evidence from which those conclusions are drawn"
Although evolutionists do provide evidence against YEC conclusions occasionally, most of the time it does involve ad hominem and mean-spirited generalizations.
"[2] Genuine science seeks the truth that explains the observed evidence.
[2a]It does not prejudice the investigation by ruling out, from the start, hypotheses that may very well provide the best explanation for the observed evidence."
I think this is a good point. Creationists have a tough mountain to climb. First, they have to deal with the claim that they are not performing science. Then they have to deal with the claim that religion cannot be taught in school. THEN they have to deal with the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 270 (6999)
03-16-2002 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by quicksink
03-16-2002 1:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by quicksink:
The problem today is that time, and numbers, for that matter, are trivialized. We here million, and even billion, all the time. they've become cliches- they've lost their power and meaning.
My point? Events that occur on the million and billion year time scale are well beyind human comprehension- because we witness so incredibly little during our life, we are in no place to judge the plausibility of eovlution.

You have just basically admitted that the TOE is not falsifiable.

This message is a reply to:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 270 (7000)
03-16-2002 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by quicksink
03-16-2002 2:44 AM


quote:
Originally posted by quicksink:
Q&A
This site is interesting- it gives very simple and straight-forward responses to the most common issues raised by YECs.
http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~wmwines/WASP/creationist_arguments.html

That site is typical- give the worst arguments ever used for Creation. Pretend that Creationists have never encountered these "explanations" before. (For example, the "bad design" argument is extremely weak)

This message is a reply to:
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Brachinus
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 270 (7001)
03-16-2002 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cobra_snake
03-16-2002 9:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
You have just basically admitted that the TOE is not falsifiable.
Not at all. The fact that we can't observe long-term evolution doesn't mean that we can't falsify it.
If the earth is very young, that would go a long way toward falsifying it, because evolution requires a long time scale.
And if the fossil record contradicted the predictions made by evolutionary theory, that would also be a falsification.
[This message has been edited by Brachinus, 03-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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