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Author | Topic: Fact Theory Falacy | |||||||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
There has been some discussion on what you would consider a Fact, and it seems that it is, I ask the more of specifics on what they would call a fact, that it resembles the relevance of a theory rather than a factoid. What is the definition and views on the differences of fact and theory?
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nator Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Here is a good place to start:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html quote: Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put quote in a quote box and removed a bunch of extra line feeds.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
Ok Great, now how is this definition consistant with Evolution?
What part of Evolution is Fact, what part is Theory? Why is it so. ------------------
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Late_Cretaceous Inactive Member |
Here are the FACTS:
Organisms are related to each other to a greater or lesser degree (this is obvious, a zebra is more closely related to a horse then to a dandylion). Organisms demonstrate that they have common descent (morphology, genetics, fossil record). Allele frequencies in populations can and do occur in response to envrinmental changes (the famous peppered moths). Organisms reproduce, and have more offspring then can possible survive. THe offspring had inherited genes from their parents, so that they are very similar but also unique. The expression of some of these genes may improve certain individuals' chances of survival given current conditions. Mutations can and do occur that are beneficial, or can even endow an organism with something totally new (like the bacteria that was observed to have developed an enzyme capable of digesting nylon due to a missing base pair in a DNA sequence for an existing gene).
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7905 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
Heres the Mariam Webster definition:
Main Entry: fact Pronunciation: 'fakt Function: noun Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere Date: 15th century 1 : a thing done: as a : obsolete : FEAT b : CRIME c : archaic : ACTION 2 : archaic : PERFORMANCE, DOING 3 : the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY 4 a : something that has actual existence 5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality - in fact : in truth multiple meanings never help since evolution isnt a fact by #4, its still not entirely proven if i remember, and is a fact by #5. Also it is fact and theory according to my Biology book; and if it is not important its the most important aspect of Biology. Of course my unbiased, gain no knowledge from, highschool book doesnt help explain things either. However for me i suppose a fact is something that can be observed without making any assumptions i.e. no part can be filled in by: i think that this happened because it supports my theory. It also must be able to be as to the point as 1 + 1 = 2. thats my 2 cents ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi [This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-06-2002] [This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-06-2002]
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: I don`t doubt 1 + 1 = 2 for a second but as an exercise in understanding the nature of proof can you prove it?
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
Something outside of mathematics can be proven?
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joz Inactive Member |
hows 1 + 1 = 2 outside mathematics?
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5217 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
And how can you prove ID in the same way you can 1+1=2. If you can't it's not a valid comparison.
------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
I'm not challenging Joz, I'm questioning the original comparison.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 02-06-2002]
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Here are the FACTS:"
--Lets see what we got. "Organisms are related to each other to a greater or lesser degree (this is obvious, a zebra is more closely related to a horse then to a dandylion)."--To a degree yes this is fact. "Organisms demonstrate that they have common descent (morphology, genetics, fossil record)."--No, this is not fact, this is interperetation of the evidence in contrast with the un-observable past. "Allele frequencies in populations can and do occur in response to envrinmental changes (the famous peppered moths)."--Yup, natural selection. "Organisms reproduce, and have more offspring then can possible survive. THe offspring had inherited genes from their parents, so that they are very similar but also unique. The expression of some of these genes may improve certain individuals' chances of survival given current conditions."--To a degree this is true. "Mutations can and do occur that are beneficial, or can even endow an organism with something totally new (like the bacteria that was observed to have developed an enzyme capable of digesting nylon due to a missing base pair in a DNA sequence for an existing gene)."--You almost had it right, untill you said that it created something new, and then contredicted yourself when you said 'due to a missing base pair', something was missing for this to take place it seems. --So would these be the potential facts? ------------------
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7905 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
quote: i meant that it is easy to observe and it doesnt have any parts left to be filled in. those parts cannot be filled in by opinions, assumptions, beliefs, etc. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3845 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
[QUOTE][b]i meant that it is easy to observe and it doesnt have any parts left to be filled in. those parts cannot be filled in by opinions, assumptions, beliefs, etc.[/QUOTE]
[/b] It is the role of science to not just "observe" natural phenomena but to explain it. That means that assumptions and opinions and sometimes even beliefs are part of the process so long as the scientific method is followed and these are allowed to be questioned and rejected if the data requires it. "Proof", as you define it, does not exist in science, there is only tentativity.
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: Actually you replied to something I said to gene if you look up 2 posts you will find that I asked you if you could prove 1+1=2. So can you?
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7905 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
i dont fully understand what your asking
----------------- "Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi [This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-06-2002]
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