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Author Topic:   On The Philosophy of, well, Philosophy
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 196 of 307 (432357)
11-05-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Modulous
11-05-2007 2:05 PM


Re: rigour within philosophy; not without
Not at all - my point isn't to dispute this point, but to dispute that this is a problem in the way you seem to be implying.
I don't expect it to be a problem for anyone but me, and people who think like me. If people want to waste their time with philosophy, who am I to stop them?
Nonetheless, when philosophers roll up somewhere and act like they're the keepers of All Knowledge and the rest of us should thank them for what morsels of wisdom drop from their lips - that all of human endeavor is illuminated by their Holy Sun - pardon me if I call "bullshit" on that.
Well, we arguing as to what that should mean, and if it presents some kind of reason to denigrate the field.
I think that the universal tendency of philosophy to turn people into the sort of churlish assholes we've seen on this very thread is enough to denigrate the field.
But like I said, I can only defend the proposition that philosophy is a field with no rigor. I can't convince someone to think that philosophy is bad because it lacks rigor. That's the sort of opinion we have to arrive at, ourselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Modulous, posted 11-05-2007 2:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Modulous, posted 11-05-2007 2:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 197 of 307 (432361)
11-05-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by crashfrog
11-05-2007 2:20 PM


Re: rigour within philosophy; not without
If people want to waste their time with philosophy, who am I to stop them?
But philosophy isn't necessarily a waste of time.
Nonetheless, when philosophers roll up somewhere and act like they're the keepers of All Knowledge and the rest of us should thank them for what morsels of wisdom drop from their lips - that all of human endeavor is illuminated by their Holy Sun - pardon me if I call "bullshit" on that.
So would I. I've never seen it, but I would. Philosophy root study of knowledge, but philosophers aren't its keepers.
I think that the universal tendency of philosophy to turn people into the sort of churlish assholes we've seen on this very thread is enough to denigrate the field.
If a few examples of people you personally consider churlish assholes is considered rigour in your philosophy...count me out of it.
I can only defend the proposition that philosophy is a field with no rigor
So why not address my comments about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2007 2:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2007 4:54 PM Modulous has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 198 of 307 (432374)
11-05-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Modulous
11-05-2007 2:35 PM


Re: rigour within philosophy; not without
So why not address my comments about that?
I thought I did. It's just your opinion. If you feel philosophy's lack of rigor isn't significant, I can't change your mind.
I can disagree, though, and I do. I don't understand what you think can be discussed about that. Is there honestly any possibility that I can convince you that your opinion is "wrong"? If not why would I try?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Modulous, posted 11-05-2007 2:35 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Modulous, posted 11-06-2007 12:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 199 of 307 (432504)
11-06-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by crashfrog
11-05-2007 4:54 PM


another angle
You hold science up as an example of a field with rigour, where people can come to basic agreements over what can be said to be true, and what can be said to be false. I agree with that. Scientists mostly share a pretty similar philosophy when it comes to engaging in science. There are still philosophical disagreements - is this theory diminished because it is only falsifiable in principle, rather than in practice? How much evidence does the hypothesis need before we can begin to be confident of it?
That people with a similar philosophy agree with one another over broad issues is not in debate. That science has shown that it can generate agreement over more specific things that other methods stemming from philosophy (such as meditation, contemplation, prayer, trances etc etc) have been able to, is definitely a mark in its favour.
I just can't see how you can feel that because a group of people with a shared philosophy agree with one another about their philosophy and the results derived using it in combination with evidence obtained and analysed, shows that the whole field of philosophy is diminished by this. It seems a rather trivial observation that people that accept the same philosophy will agree with one another on philosophical points such as what qualifies as 'rigour'.
You argue that scientists don't generally get into the philosophy of science, and don't consider it. I agree. That doesn't mean they don't have a philosophy - a worldview, a way of seeing things. That didn't come to them instinctively, the rigour of science often takes a lot of training to really master.
Is there honestly any possibility that I can convince you that your opinion is "wrong"? If not why would I try?
Yes, I imagine so. You can show me my understanding of philosophy is incorrect. You can argue me into consider the significance of there being no overarching meta-rigour in human thought. You can explain how we can discriminate between whose ideas of rigour are correct with 100% certainty without circular reasoning.
If you can't do any of that, then my position is likely to remain the way it is. There may be other ways, but those seem like the big points I don't feel you've adequately covered.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2007 4:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 2:22 PM Modulous has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 200 of 307 (432531)
11-06-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Modulous
11-06-2007 12:17 PM


Re: another angle
You can show me my understanding of philosophy is incorrect.
It isn't incorrect. It's the same as mine. You understand it to be a field with no rigor, and so do I. We covered that.
We have differing opinions about the significance of that. How could we possibly reconcile our own subjective opinions?
You can argue me into consider the significance of there being no overarching meta-rigour in human thought.
This, I thought I covered. If all human thought is supposedly "philosophy", then surely "philosophy" as a term is meaningless? It's just an unneeded synonym for "thinking."
The significance of their being no rigor is that "philosophy" is a weasel word, it's a term used to conceal the lack of content. It's a term for time-wasters to use to conceal what they're doing. It's a euphemism, not a field of study, if indeed "philosophy" supposedly encompasses all human thought.
So a "philosopher" is someone who thinks. Well, great, we all do that. Obviously then to call oneself a "philosopher", or to consider what one is doing to be "philosophy", or to argue that philosophers should be esteemed, is to be acting dishonestly. Like when someone says "I'm between jobs" when what they mean is "I got fired."
I find it very significant that human thinking is unconstrained by any rigor. It means that people who want truth have to voluntarily, consciously constrain their thinking to that which is true. It won't be done for them. It means that just because you have a thought, doesn't mean that it is a true thought. It means just because a belief makes you feel good, doesn't mean that it is true.
Recognizing all the different ways to think ourselves into false belief stems, initially, from the realization that there's no external rigor imposed on human thought. Your very mind can become cluttered with unjustifiable belief unless you make an effort to sweep that stuff out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Modulous, posted 11-06-2007 12:17 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 11-06-2007 8:24 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 209 by Modulous, posted 11-07-2007 3:26 AM crashfrog has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 307 (432569)
11-06-2007 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by crashfrog
11-06-2007 2:22 PM


Philosophy”the art of thought
Your very mind can become cluttered with unjustifiable belief unless you make an effort to sweep that stuff out.
What justies a belief?
If all human thought is supposedly "philosophy"
Is it?
So a "philosopher" is someone who thinks.
Proof?
Well, great, we all do that.
Only some
if indeed "philosophy" supposedly encompasses all human thought.
Does it?
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 2:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 8:36 PM Jon has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 202 of 307 (432571)
11-06-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Jon
11-06-2007 8:24 PM


Re: Philosophy”the art of thought
Hi, you must be new here.
We covered all of this in the previous 200 messages. Content-free sniping can be taken to some other thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 11-06-2007 8:24 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Jon, posted 11-06-2007 10:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 307 (432592)
11-06-2007 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
11-06-2007 8:36 PM


Re: Philosophy”the art of thought
It looks like you really are one big joke.
Now, c'mon... answer the questions already and stop being a weasel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 8:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 10:26 PM Jon has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 204 of 307 (432593)
11-06-2007 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Jon
11-06-2007 10:22 PM


Re: Philosophy”the art of thought
Now, c'mon... answer the questions already and stop being a weasel.
If you insist. I'll answer the relevant question.
Is it?
Yes, it is, according to the defenders of philosophy on this thread.
As I said before, it's highly frustrating when another "philosopher" rolls up in here, ignores 200 messages, and starts asking the same bullshit questions we already dealt with. Jon, if philosophy is so great why isn't it possible for you to defend it without being disingenuous?
If you have a problem with how I've characterized philosophy, you need to understand that all I'm doing is taking the arguments on your side at face value.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Jon, posted 11-06-2007 10:22 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 11-06-2007 11:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 307 (432600)
11-06-2007 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by crashfrog
11-06-2007 10:26 PM


Show me the Rigour!
quote:
crash writes:
If all human thought is supposedly "philosophy"
Is it?
Yes, it is, according to the defenders of philosophy on this thread.

Mod writes:
analytic philosophy does dominate the field at this time. See wikipedia:
quote:
Analytic philosophy (sometimes, analytical philosophy) is a generic term for a style of philosophy that came to dominate English-speaking countries in the 20th century. In the United States the overwhelming majority of university philosophy departments self-identify as "analytic" departments.[1] (This situation is mirrored in the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia.)...Insofar as broad generalizations can be made, analytic philosophy is defined by its emphasis on clarity and argument, often achieved via modern formal logic and analysis of language, and a respect for the natural sciences.
crash writes:
And since the field itself makes no particular distinction between conclusions arrived at by rigorous analysis and conclusions arrived at by non-rigorous means
Actually it does. Hence the criteria of truth.
...
Have you read any philosophy at all? It is almost defined by its critical nature.
...
Completely wrong. It is because analytical philosophy is only a subset of philosophy, and not the whole of philosophy, that the universal set of philosophy is an unrigorous pursuit.
You should probably study your set theory a bit more. That would be like saying that because red cars are only a subset of 'cars', that cars are not red. Surely it would more accurate to simply say 'most cars are not red, but some are'.
So, is it?
crash writes:
it seems abundantly obvious from my own dealings with philosophers that analytic views have not come to dominate
Citing your own personal experience for evidence? Damn, man... where's the rigour?
Many philosophical positions are held that violate that criteria.
Such as...?
It's not impossible to control what people publish
In the country of...?
No, of course not. It's just that all scientists essentially agree to disregard those theories, they fail peer-review, and as a result the proponents of crank science are marginalized. A consensus emerges against the crank positions.
That doesn't happen in philosophy, as I've already proven.
Nah... you just made stuff up; much like this latest reply of yours.
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 10:26 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 11:42 PM Jon has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 206 of 307 (432602)
11-06-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
11-06-2007 11:01 PM


Re: Show me the Rigour!
So, is it?
Yes, it is. Remember?
quote:
Science is guided by the general "philosophy of science." You can't avoid it.
Crash, everything you have stated is philosophical. Everything!
I mean, apparently, according to philosophy's defenders, any act of human thought is to be engaged in philosophy. Of course, reasonable people wonder why anyone would think we need an additional word for "thinking."
Such as...?
Idealism. Intuitionism. Something like 80% of the philosophical schools listed on Wikipedia don't rely on experimental rigor, they rely of sophistry.
Jon, we covered this. Am I supposed to repeat 200 messages just because you showed up late to the party? If you want me to do that you're going to have to do better than disingenuous, two word responses to every point.
Why do you insist on being disingenuous? Is that how philosophy is defended? By acting like a complete jackass?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 11-06-2007 11:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Jon, posted 11-07-2007 12:25 AM crashfrog has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 307 (432605)
11-07-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by crashfrog
11-06-2007 11:42 PM


Re: Show me the Rigour!
You really can't answer the questions, can you? For some reason, you just cannot answer the questions.
Oh well; I tried. It's up to the rest to play brain pong with you now.
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 11:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by crashfrog, posted 11-07-2007 2:16 AM Jon has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 208 of 307 (432609)
11-07-2007 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Jon
11-07-2007 12:25 AM


Re: Show me the Rigour!
For some reason, you just cannot answer the questions.
Which question do you think I didn't answer, specifically?
How come you can't answer the questions I've been asking for 200 posts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Jon, posted 11-07-2007 12:25 AM Jon has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 209 of 307 (432615)
11-07-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by crashfrog
11-06-2007 2:22 PM


Re: another angle
This, I thought I covered. If all human thought is supposedly "philosophy", then surely "philosophy" as a term is meaningless? It's just an unneeded synonym for "thinking."
Not just thought, I was hoping you would understand me based on my previous posts. Thought about certain things. Things such as 'what is the right thing to do?' or 'how can I tell if this is a true statement or a false one?'
I find it very significant that human thinking is unconstrained by any rigor. It means that people who want truth have to voluntarily, consciously constrain their thinking to that which is true.
I agreed that this was a problem earlier. The frailty of man's mind to succumb to tricks, illusions, rumour and superstition is well known. It requires training to stick to a disciplined rigour. It doesn't come naturally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2007 2:22 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-07-2007 6:29 AM Modulous has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 210 of 307 (432622)
11-07-2007 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Modulous
11-07-2007 3:26 AM


The Shape of the Fabric
Modulous:
Thought about certain things. Things such as 'what is the right thing to do?' or 'how can I tell if this is a true statement or a false one?'
Well said.
Many people make the mistake of thinking that knowledge works like a college course catalog tends to look. Everything is there in self-contained little boxes. If one chooses one's courses from the chemistry box, the thinking goes, one has consigned social science and literature and other endeavours to the dustbin. Literature and social science specialists may likewise think of themselves as done with chemistry as a result of their choices. Nevermore shall these paths cross.
Not so. Human knowledge is not isolated boxes, but a woven fabric. Threads cross, run parallel, provide mutual support. One thread leads to another. All of the fabric is connected.
We find an excellent example of this just in looking at the sciences. In the first half of the twentieth century we had a situation where geologists often did their thing, physicists did theirs, and biologists did theirs. As the century moved forward, though, patterns were discerned that had implications for, and united, all these areas of study. Overarching theories such as plate tectonics united a variety of formerly separate areas of study into one theory. (Just as the theory of evolution had a century earlier.)
This process of discerning pattern is not limited to the sciences. Interrelationships exist across all human knowledge.
Behind all areas of study lies philosophy. It is the place you come to when, regardless of where you started, you trace all the threads back.
JavaMan showed us how you get to these questions when you start with auto mechanics. Jar showed us how addressing a practical concern--improving the quality of human lives--necessarily follows from value decisions--the nature of improvement, the desirability of the goal. nator reminded us that in academia all roads lead to philosophy. When you do your science well, she pointed out, academia recognizes you as a Doctor of Philosophy (Science). Indeed it does. And when you do other things well, it still recognizes you as a Doctor of Philosophy, whatever your field. Different paths, same colour blue at the summit.
To climb, if one climbs well, is to see a panorama at the summit. There one sees all the peaks one chose not to climb. One views them with new appreciation for having conquered the single peak one has. One sees the interrelatedness of all knowledge. And one sees the limits of one's own.
So it is that in back of all specialized knowledge lies philosophy. What do we know? How do we know it? What limits do we work with? How best to take advantage of those things we can do?
It is often charged that questions like these are not of 'practical' use. But they are. We act every day on our answers to them. It's just that most of the time we assume those answers rather than think about them. The mechanic asks 'How do I get the engine to run more efficiently?' (a practical question). It's a daily concern. But the question itself assumes that an answer to another question has already been reached: 'What is efficiency?' (a threshold philosophical question).
Sooner or later thinking people step back and examine the assumptions they make. They ask those questions and question those answers that so often are taken for granted. They consider, they wonder, they... well, they think. Am I using the best definition? How do I know? When did I decide? What other answers are possible? How do they compare?

The unexamined life is not worth living.
-Socrates
To hold any belief system, to operate from any set of priorities, is to have a philosophy. To examine any belief system is to engage in philosophy. All thinking people are in this business.
It is not true to say that philosophy has 'no definition' because 'everything is philosophy.' People say this when they realize this is something that can't be put in a ghetto-shaped box the same way you might be able to segregate, say, the subject of geology from the subject of biology. Not knowing right away where to place it, they assume it to be shapeless.
Not at all. It's not that everything is philosophy; it's that philosophy stands behind everything. It is the loom behind the fabric, the place you arrive when you trace the threads back to their source. It is where you question everything you think you know and seek every truth to be had.
_______________
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Modulous, posted 11-07-2007 3:26 AM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by crashfrog, posted 11-07-2007 11:41 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 213 by nator, posted 11-07-2007 2:14 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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