Brain and soul : seperate or the same?

Not true, as the more discriminating you are about the evidence you'll accept, the harder it gets to find evidence, whether it exists or not. Haven't you ever taken basic composition or public speaking classes? The first thing they teach you to do is find and reference authoritative sources which back your claims.

Haven't you ever taken a basic science class? The first thing they teach you is to go find relevant data with which to back up your claims, not quotes from scientists.

That's because you're being taught the TECHNIQUES of science, not the history of it.........no Music Theory teacher would accept Bach's definition of good counter-point technique in place of an assignment that was supposed to be an original composition of a fugue, but that doesn't mean that many theory teachers would ever ARGUE against Bach either........the same with scientists and the scientific equivilants of Bach, like Niels Bohr.

But that's what we're talking about. The conclusions resulting from the application of the scientific techniques - you know, the method.We're discussion the conclusions of science as they stand now. Not as they may have been in times past. Why would we care about that stuff, except as trivia? The reason it's in the past is because it's wrong.

I am thinking that the topic drift on this thread is in need of being taken back to its originl intent. If people would please try to deal rebuttal and discussion on issues raised within the opening post. This website is where we should pick out specific details to discuss. BBC - Radio 4 - Reith Lectures 2003 - The Emerging MindThanks.

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"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

And the opinion of science, as it stands now, is reflected in Niels Bohr's quote.......so why are we arguing?

But you haven't given any evidence that that is the case. Bohr was a great man, but he can hardly be said to speak for science as it stands now, considering that he died in 1962.You don't think there's any possibility, apparently, that the state of quantum physics might have changed, ever-so-slightly, in the past 40+ years?

Unless you can provide proof to the claim that Bohr's idea is outdated (and the very FOUNDATION of the Copenhagen position, which most scientists adhere to, claims that current ideas about quantum physics CAN'T be outdated, as we've reached the limit of human knowledge), then I have no need to back up my point further.......Not that I couldn't, BTW, as I know exactly where I can find an academic paper containing experimental evidence from just two years ago or so that backs Bohr's position.........but, unless you can provide a counter-argument from authority or some other form of proof to shoot down my claim, I don't feel compelled to; you being too stubborn to except forms of proof that challenge your ideas about how things are doesn't provide your opponent with motivation to provide better proof, it provides them with motivation to not argue with you at all........which is exactly why you're so picky about arguments from authority.

What you have described is very close to the Hindu or Vedantic teachings on liberation. But they see being beyond thought, will, emotions and body as a blissful state of pure awareness of being and the freedom as something to be looked forward to. I will grant that most don't actually look forward to it because of attachments to various pleasures and desires, your attitude is not all that different from the majority.lfen

Just so we're clear, the interpretation that consiousness collapses waveforms is separate from the Copenhagen interpretation, as this page shows: Interpretations of quantum mechanics - WikipediaBut, at any rate, Bell's Theorem seems to indicate that we can't be sure which interpretation is correct; with that in mind, it doesn't matter how many quotes from Bohr you provide, it's physically impossible for Bohr to have said what you're saying he said with any degree of certainty.But I'm no expert. Hopefully Mr. Jack will be back to support his assertions. I don't have the expertise to do so. Funny, that's never stopped you before, nor anyone else.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-06-2004 12:22 AM

You'll have to do better than that......I want a direct quote from that page saying such, as I don't have the time to go through the whole thing. Besides, I know this to be untrue. This is also untrue, as (I believe) most scientists both accept Bell's Theorem and the Copenhagen interpretation. Sooooo, pigs DO experiments, huh?

Ah, right. Here we go again. "Most scientists" this and "most scientists that." As if appeal to authority wasn't already fallacious, he expands it to appeal to anonymous authority.Look, I don't care anymore. It's obvious you're not interested in any kind of evidentiary discussion, but rather, intellectual penis-measuring. Well, I'm truly sorry about your penis, but I'm not interested in that game.

Oh, but I bet it HAS stopped other people.......like Kelly Wilson. I believe she stopped arguing the point out of frustration for your stubborness, and you interpret such as a concession to your point when it actually isn't.As for me, I am ALSO incredibly stubborn.......

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

​

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

​

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets...
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

No, I expand it to an appeal to authority ITSELF....... And that's obviously because my intellectual dick is bigger than yours........

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

​

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

​

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets...
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

What can I say? You're certainly the bigger dick.