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Author Topic:   Are thoughts transcendant?
Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 91 of 142 (429800)
10-21-2007 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Kitsune
10-18-2007 9:44 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
Science is not a tool, it is a method. It is based upon logic, and most human beings claim to have some part of that. You do not gain knowledge from science, you use science to gain knowledge.
What you say is not logical, lindalou. That there is something that you feel exists only to a certain select minority, or exists to everyone and only a few can percieve it does not make sense logically. The world we live in is mundane and is subject to logic. Your fantasies are not.
Like the science turn around, i dont judge experiances because ive already made up my mind, ive already made up my mind because of what i have experianced. The universe is not ours to make of it as we please, it is what it is.
Maybe i will oneday have spiritual experiances. And that day i will change my mindset. But then again, maybe one day the Magical People of of the Woo will come and take you away.

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Kitsune, posted 10-18-2007 9:44 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Kitsune, posted 10-22-2007 9:17 AM Damouse has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 92 of 142 (429888)
10-22-2007 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Damouse
10-21-2007 8:22 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
So in order to be a scientist, does that mean you have to reject spirituality? You'd better go explain that to the theistic evolutionists here then.
Spirituality isn't logical. You can remind people of this as many times as you like, but don't be surprised if they don't immediately see your point of view and turn ahteist. Logical thinking is entirely appropriate in many situations, but sometimes it can be useful to utilise different parts of the brain too.
Yes the universe exists as it is. Do you claim to have a complete understanding of how it works then? You seem to, if you are telling me that the way I perceive it is fantasy. Why not at least grant me the freedom to think that this is just a little narrow-minded, and that there may be more to life than science currently understands, or perhaps can ever adequately explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2007 8:22 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Annafan, posted 10-22-2007 10:18 AM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 94 by NosyNed, posted 10-22-2007 10:40 AM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 96 by nator, posted 10-22-2007 7:35 PM Kitsune has replied
 Message 98 by Damouse, posted 10-22-2007 10:42 PM Kitsune has not replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 93 of 142 (429900)
10-22-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Kitsune
10-22-2007 9:17 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
Why not at least grant me the freedom to think that this is just a little narrow-minded, and that there may be more to life than science currently understands, or perhaps can ever adequately explain.
That's not the point. A true skeptic has no problem acknowledging that there is a lot out there that science hasn't been able to explain, or even observe. But she has the humility to acknowledge that any impressions, hunches or feelings that she has about this, are extremely fallible. And humility is indeed the right word here, contrary to the accusations that skeptics are so certain of themselves, so arrogant. A skeptic has doubt, whereas the true believer has unquestioned revelation and intuition. Why don't these people ever take it for possible that they are fallible, that they can fall into misconceptions or that they might not have enough knowledge and information to correctly interprete experiences? I mean, history is chock full of examples. Why would we be immune?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Kitsune, posted 10-22-2007 9:17 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by nator, posted 10-22-2007 7:45 PM Annafan has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 94 of 142 (429903)
10-22-2007 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Kitsune
10-22-2007 9:17 AM


Not what but how
You seem to, if you are telling me that the way I perceive it is fantasy.
It isn't what you perceive that is the primary problem; it is how you arrive at what you think you perceive. The methods you use to arrive at your accepted conclusions have been shown to be wrong over and over and over. You conclusions may or may not be correct in any given situation but it isn't possible to tell since we know the methods are faulty and lead to wrong conclusions very often.
So yes, the way you perceive often leads to fantastical conclusions. What you perceive has to be dealt with case by case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Kitsune, posted 10-22-2007 9:17 AM Kitsune has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 142 (429956)
10-22-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by petrophysics1
10-18-2007 6:17 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
Hey, Petro, any thoughts on my critique and questions found in message #55?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by petrophysics1, posted 10-18-2007 6:17 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 96 of 142 (429959)
10-22-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Kitsune
10-22-2007 9:17 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
I would REALLY like to see your reply to Annafan's message #93, LindaLou, as I've more or less said the same thing to you at least two or three times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Kitsune, posted 10-22-2007 9:17 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2007 2:46 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 142 (429963)
10-22-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Annafan
10-22-2007 10:18 AM


humility
quote:
And humility is indeed the right word here, contrary to the accusations that skeptics are so certain of themselves, so arrogant.
Well, when skeptics are accused of arrogance, I think what people are really saying is, "You are arrogant because you don't unquestioningly believe whatever I tell you in the same way I unquestioningly believe what somebody else told me."
Skeptics don't react this way to rational questioning or reasonable doubt. We welcome probing, investigative inquiry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Annafan, posted 10-22-2007 10:18 AM Annafan has not replied

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 98 of 142 (429988)
10-22-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Kitsune
10-22-2007 9:17 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
So in order to be a scientist, does that mean you have to reject spirituality? You'd better go explain that to the theistic evolutionists here then.
Not in all aspects per se, but generally yes. If spirituality skews facts, then it has no place in science.
Logical thinking is entirely appropriate in many situations, but sometimes it can be useful to utilise different parts of the brain too.
There isnt a section of your brain that is logical and understandable and a section that is filled with etherereal, mythical dust. From a computer standpoint, no matter how complex and abstract a system is, it is always founded in logic in its lowest layer. In its highest abstraction layer, things might not seem so, but that has no bearing on what truely makes the system up. Likewise with the Brain.
Yes the universe exists as it is. Do you claim to have a complete understanding of how it works then?
I dont claim to know the contents of the universe, but i do claim at least a bare knowledge of the rules of the game. What you say and think has nothing on the content that i percieve and even if it did i claim no knowledge over all of the contents. What you say goes against the basest rules of the universe, and unless we live in differant places, those tend to be the same.
What you think has no direct impact on me, except that i percieve it to be wrong. Should i step back and say "hey, more power to you?" If that was the way things worked in debates nothing would be debated.

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Kitsune, posted 10-22-2007 9:17 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by JavaMan, posted 10-23-2007 12:21 PM Damouse has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 99 of 142 (430039)
10-23-2007 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nator
10-22-2007 7:35 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
What is there to say? I don't think I have all the answers just because I am of a mystical bent. I simply believe that there are more ways at arriving at Truth that that which science provides. As it's impossible to explain this to anyone who says that this is simply fantasy, wishful thinking, lying to myself, delusion, etc, then there's nothing more for me to add here. I am not a theist but spirituality is a large part of my life. That is valid for me, and for many others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 10-22-2007 7:35 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Annafan, posted 10-23-2007 4:36 AM Kitsune has replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 100 of 142 (430048)
10-23-2007 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Kitsune
10-23-2007 2:46 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
What is there to say? I don't think I have all the answers just because I am of a mystical bent. I simply believe that there are more ways at arriving at Truth that that which science provides. As it's impossible to explain this to anyone who says that this is simply fantasy, wishful thinking, lying to myself, delusion, etc, then there's nothing more for me to add here. I am not a theist but spirituality is a large part of my life. That is valid for me, and for many others.
What I don't understand is how you use the word "Truth" here. Unless you are able to somehow convince (get to agree, or even better: convert) others of this "Truth", it can't be anything else but personal truth. Which, in the end, is nothing but a euphemism for opinion, don't you agree?
It's fine to have opinions, but only as long as you're aware that they are opinions and that they could be wrong, and that they are severely lacking potential to reach agreement about with other people.
Keeping opinions (personal truth) and objective truth seperate would go a long way in coexisting peacefully and preventing people from getting riled up

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2007 2:46 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2007 5:15 AM Annafan has not replied
 Message 104 by JavaMan, posted 10-23-2007 12:23 PM Annafan has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 101 of 142 (430050)
10-23-2007 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Annafan
10-23-2007 4:36 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
People have been debating about the nature of truth for thousands of years. The specialty of this forum is scientific truth. I have no trouble accepting that fossils are found in a geologic column containing rocks that can be dated by a number of methods. The truths that a person might learn from life experiences, other people, spiritual experiences, meditation, etc, are of a different nature. To call them nothing more than subjective opinions is to grossly belittle them. They should be questioned and discussed, yes. There will be some who disagree and see things differently maybe. That's fine. But are you willing to throw out the whole of philosophy and religion, which examine the nature of life and existence, because they are not as "true" as a fossil or a rock?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Annafan, posted 10-23-2007 4:36 AM Annafan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 10-23-2007 8:55 AM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 105 by Quetzal, posted 10-23-2007 3:50 PM Kitsune has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 142 (430056)
10-23-2007 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Kitsune
10-23-2007 5:15 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
quote:
People have been debating about the nature of truth for thousands of years. The specialty of this forum is scientific truth. I have no trouble accepting that fossils are found in a geologic column containing rocks that can be dated by a number of methods.
But you do have a problem with accepting anything science says regarding any of the unsupported stuff you, personally, like to believe in, like poltergeists and medical conspiracy theories.
You disregard science constantly, for exactly the same reasons creationists do.
quote:
The truths that a person might learn from life experiences, other people, spiritual experiences, meditation, etc, are of a different nature.
Aesthetic or moral "truths" are not the purview of science, but natural "truths" certainly are.
Where the "truths" derived from the above subjective sources you listed claim something about the natural world that contradicts the scientific evidence about the natural world, the subjective experiences should always be discarded in favor of the scientific.
In other words, when trying to understand the natural world, scientific evidence always trumps subjective evidence.
quote:
To call them nothing more than subjective opinions is to grossly belittle them.
But they are nothing but subjective opinions.
We can't test someone's personal spiritual experience, can we?
How are they useful in understanding the natural world? How do subjective opinions improve inquiry? How do we judge one person's personal "truth" to be more accurate than any other person's personal "truth". There's no way to tell.
That's not saying that people's personal "truths" aren't valuable to them.
quote:
They should be questioned and discussed, yes. There will be some who disagree and see things differently maybe. That's fine. But are you willing to throw out the whole of philosophy and religion, which examine the nature of life and existence, because they are not as "true" as a fossil or a rock?
It isn't a matter of throwing them out.
It is a matter of understanding that they are subjective, and therefore are based upon personal opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2007 5:15 AM Kitsune has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 103 of 142 (430106)
10-23-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Damouse
10-22-2007 10:42 PM


Logic, science and the brain
Damouse, I feel you are misrepresenting the scientific case, and I'm finding myself more and more inclining to agree with Linda Lou.
1. Science is not the same as logic. Science is empirical, i.e. it uses observation and experiment to understand the world. If logic contradicts reality (which it sometimes can do), then the logic is at fault.
There isnt a section of your brain that is logical and understandable and a section that is filled with etherereal, mythical dust. From a computer standpoint, no matter how complex and abstract a system is, it is always founded in logic in its lowest layer. In its highest abstraction layer, things might not seem so, but that has no bearing on what truely makes the system up. Likewise with the Brain.
2. The brain is not a logic machine. It works by association, not by logic. We have logical skills, but they're just a tiny part of what our brain does. For much our interaction with the world, logical thinking is completely inappropriate.
3. Science is not a complete world view. It is an analytical method for creating models of the world. Those models can be immensely powerful for making predictions, and for generating technology, but they're still models, not the reality itself.
Science is a part of our understanding of the world - we also have our own experience, philosophy, religion (well, some of it anyway), music, poetry, tennis, rock climbing, art, children, love, sex, train spotting, internet forums, sunsets and sea urchins. (And one or two other things).

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Damouse, posted 10-22-2007 10:42 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Damouse, posted 10-23-2007 11:44 PM JavaMan has replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 104 of 142 (430107)
10-23-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Annafan
10-23-2007 4:36 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
What is there to say? I don't think I have all the answers just because I am of a mystical bent. I simply believe that there are more ways at arriving at Truth that that which science provides. As it's impossible to explain this to anyone who says that this is simply fantasy, wishful thinking, lying to myself, delusion, etc, then there's nothing more for me to add here. I am not a theist but spirituality is a large part of my life. That is valid for me, and for many others.
What I don't understand is how you use the word "Truth" here. Unless you are able to somehow convince (get to agree, or even better: convert) others of this "Truth", it can't be anything else but personal truth. Which, in the end, is nothing but a euphemism for opinion, don't you agree?
Don't you think it's possible to come to the truth about anything, except via scientific investigation or logic?

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Annafan, posted 10-23-2007 4:36 AM Annafan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2007 6:40 PM JavaMan has not replied
 Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 10-23-2007 7:37 PM JavaMan has replied
 Message 113 by Annafan, posted 10-24-2007 7:26 AM JavaMan has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 105 of 142 (430169)
10-23-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Kitsune
10-23-2007 5:15 AM


Re: On thought and telepathy
I'm just tempted to reply to this bit:
But are you willing to throw out the whole of philosophy and religion, which examine the nature of life and existence, because they are not as "true" as a fossil or a rock?
Let's see, from my standpoint:
philosophy = metaphysical navel gazing. Put two philosophers in a room, ask whether the sky is blue, and you'll get three mutually contradictory answers.
religion = belief in the existence of something in the face of and in spite of an utter lack of evidence for that something. IOW, willfull self-delusion.
In a word: yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2007 5:15 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by petrophysics1, posted 10-23-2007 7:10 PM Quetzal has replied

  
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