Super Evolution and the Flood

In order to discuss this topic you have to stay within the limits proscribed by the opening post. It posits that some creationists believe that there are many, many fewer kinds than species, and that Noah had only to take two of every kind on the ark. After the flood these kinds evolved into all the species we see today.This is not a thread for advocating a regional rather than global flood.This is not a thread for advocating miracles not related to the scenario described in the opening post.This is not a thread for advocating quantum mechanical alternatives.This is not a thread for trumpeting about the great deal of science carried on by creationist scientists.And last but not least, especially in the science forums participants are expected to stay on-topic and support their positions with evidence and argument.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I have modified the list to show that all apes are ape kind and monkeys are monkey kind. I've also alphabetized the list to make it easier to read.-Addax
-Anteater
-Antelope
-Ape
-Armadillo
-Badger
-Bat
-Bear
-Camel
-Cheetah
-Cow
-Deer
-Dog
-Dolphin
-Dugong
-Elephant
-Elk
-Fox
-Gaur
-Giraffe
-Goat
-Guanaco
-Hippo
-Horse
-Hyena
-Kangaroo
-Koala
-Leopard
-Lion
-Manatee
-Monkey
-Mouflon
-Mouse
-Orca
-Oryx
-Peccary
-Pig
-Platypus
-Possum
-Rabbit
-Raccoon
-Rat
-Rhino
-Seal
-Sheep
-Shrew
-Squirrel
-Tapir
-Tazmanian Devil
-Tiger
-Vicugna
-Walrus
-Walrus
-Whale
-Wolverine
-ZebraEdited by Taz, : fix spellings

Actually, the cow would be part of the "Cine kind" Like most, I have never been able to get much of a definition of kind from YEC's, but from what I have been able to gather most of them envision that animals that resemble each other closely are a "kind." For example, the Antelope, Deer, and Elk would be one "kind". The Walrus and Seal might be another "kind" and so on.I can see no mechanism, however, that you could go from 2 of the unclean "kinds" and 7 of the clean "kinds" to the current species without just saying "goddidit". If we are going to assume a global flood 4500 years ago, that is the only "scientific" answer we can arrive at.I do not know if this added to what you have posted, Taz. I do hope it addresses the topic at hand. (I lurked for a long time before joining, and now realize that staying on topic is tougher than it looks.)

The list is a good idea but I do have a question. Let's say this occurred why don't we find Kangaroos indigenous to the Middle East (or wherever the boat landed), we also do not find fossils or bones of modern day Kangaroos in the middle east. Not to mentioned who knew about them and who went and got them in the first place. If there was a Super-Evolution there would also be a super migration of animals or Noah's work was extremely understated, in that he would had to remove this gigantic boat from the mountain to nearest large body of water with access to the major oceans, separated all the species or kinds by continent put them back on the boat and then sailed again around the world placing these animals on their proper continents. Not to mentioned he probably then should have gotten credit for discovering a new world.

Hi Taz,I am not YEC but I don't think you have to put the whale, walrus, dolphin or other water animals on the ark.Just a thought.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The Bible says that all life that wasn't on the ark died.

Ok, I have removed everything that even remotely look like a deer and just clump them into deer kind. I've also removed aquatic mammals.People, remember that these just came off the top of my head. I'm sure you can add to list some mammals that I don't know about or haven't thought of.We're making progress. We are one step closer to knowing just how many animal were on Noah's ark.-Anteater
-Ape
-Armadillo
-Badger
-Bat
-Bear
-buffalo
-Camel
-Cheetah
-Cow
-Deer
-Dog
-Elephant
-Elk
-Fox
-Giraffe
-Goat
-Guanaco
-Hippo
-Horse
-Hyena
-Kangaroo
-Koala
-Leopard
-Lion
-Manatee
-Monkey
-Mouflon
-Mouse
-Orca
-Oryx
-Peccary
-Pig
-Platypus
-Possum
-Rabbit
-Raccoon
-Rat
-Rhino
-Sheep
-Shrew
-Squirrel
-Tapir
-Tazmanian Devil
-Tiger
-Vicugna
-Wolverine
-ZebraEdited by Taz, : No reason given.

tsk, tsk, Taz.You've forgotten all the extinct mammals.# 1 Subclass Prototheria* 1.1 Infraclass Yinotheria
o 1.1.1 Order Monotremata# 2 Subclass Allotheria* 2.1 Order Multituberculata
o 2.1.1 Suborder "Plagiaulacida"
o 2.1.2 Suborder Cimolodonta
* 2.2 Order Triconodonta
* 2.3 Order Docodonta# 3 Subclass Theria* 3.1 Infraclass Pantotheria
o 3.1.1 Order Symmetrodonta
o 3.1.2 Order Pantotheria (Eupantotheria)
* 3.2 Infraclass Metatheria
o 3.2.1 Order Dasyuromorphia
o 3.2.2 Order Peramelemorphia
o 3.2.3 Order Diprotodontia
+ 3.2.3.1 Suborder Vombatiformes
+ 3.2.3.2 Suborder Phalangeriformes
+ 3.2.3.3 Suborder Macropodiformes
* 3.3 Infraclass Eutheria
o 3.3.1 Order Leptictida
o 3.3.2 Order Apatotheria
o 3.3.3 Order Pantolesta
o 3.3.4 Order Insectivora
+ 3.3.4.1 Suborder Erinaceomorpha
+ 3.3.4.2 Suborder Soricomorpha
o 3.3.5 Order Macroscelidea
o 3.3.6 Order Dermoptera
o 3.3.7 Order Chiroptera
o 3.3.8 Order Scandentia
o 3.3.9 Order Primates
+ 3.3.9.1 Suborder Strepsirrhini
+ 3.3.9.2 Suborder Haplorrhini
o 3.3.10 Order Anagalida
o 3.3.11 Order Lagomorpha
o 3.3.12 Order Rodentia
o 3.3.13 Order Condylarthra
o 3.3.14 Order Mesonychia
o 3.3.15 Order Litopterna
o 3.3.16 Order Notoungulata
+ 3.3.16.1 Suborder Notioprogonia
+ 3.3.16.2 Suborder Toxodontia
+ 3.3.16.3 Suborder Typotheria
+ 3.3.16.4 Suborder Hegetotheria
o 3.3.17 Order Astrapotheria
o 3.3.18 Order Xenungulata
o 3.3.19 Order Pyrotheria
o 3.3.20 Order Dinocerata
o 3.3.21 Order Pantodonta
o 3.3.22 Order Tillodontia
o 3.3.23 Order Taeniodonta
o 3.3.24 Order Arctostylopida
o 3.3.25 Order Embrithopoda
o 3.3.26 Order Creodonta
o 3.3.27 Order Carnivora
+ 3.3.27.1 Suborder Caniformia (Dog-like carnivores)
+ 3.3.27.2 Suborder Aeluroidea (Cat-like carnivores)
o 3.3.28 Order Xenarthra (Edentata)
+ 3.3.28.1 Suborder Vermilingua
+ 3.3.28.2 Suborder Tardigrada
+ 3.3.28.3 Suborder Cingulata
o 3.3.29 Order Pholidota
o 3.3.30 Order Tubulidentata
o 3.3.31 Order Bibymalagasia
o 3.3.32 Order Proboscidea
o 3.3.33 Order Hyracoidea
o 3.3.34 Order Desmostylia
o 3.3.35 Order Sirenia
o 3.3.36 Order Cetacea
+ 3.3.36.1 Suborder Archaeoceti
+ 3.3.36.2 Suborder Mysticeti
+ 3.3.36.3 Suborder Odontoceti
o 3.3.37 Order Perissodactyla
+ 3.3.37.1 Suborder Hippomorpha
+ 3.3.37.2 Suborder Ceratomorpha
o 3.3.38 Order Artiodactyla
+ 3.3.38.1 Suborder Suina
+ 3.3.38.2 Suborder Tylopoda
+ 3.3.38.3 Suborder Ruminantia(From wiki)And that's not counting all the individual species.
That list is too long to post.More to come.

Sloth
Tenrec
Hedgehog
Skunk
Otter
Ferret
Sea lion
Caracal
Seal
Panda
Beaver
Hyrax
Prairie dog
Capybara
Porcupine
Degu
Chinchilla
Acouchi
Rock cavy
Mole ratOh fiddlesticks.I'm tired of typing.Here's a list with 5419 mammals:http://nmnhgoph.si.edu/msw

Haha, what the hell are you talking about? I want a list of mammal "kinds" that were saved by Noah. Extinct mammals don't count. Mammal species don't count. That's why I said "ape" instead of all the ape species out there.For now, don't argue with the concept of "kind" and "species". Just play along. Just use your common sense and add to my list of "kinds" of mammals on the Ark.Ok, from your short list, I've added onto my comprehensive list of "kinds". Notice that I've taken out things that can swim (obviously, if they could swim then they could survive a world wide flood) and things that belong to already listed kinds like panda because a panda is a bear.Acouchi
Anteater
Ape
Armadillo
Badger
Bat
Bear
Beaver
buffalo
Camel
Capybara
Caracal
Cheetah
Chinchilla
Cow
Deer
Degu
Dog
Elephant
Elk
Ferret
Fox
Giraffe
Goat
Guanaco
Hippo
Horse
Hyena
Hyrax
Kangaroo
Koala
Leopard
Lion
Manatee
Mole rat
Monkey
Mouflon
Mouse
Oryx
Peccary
Pig
Platypus
Porcupine
Possum
Prairie dog
Rabbit
Raccoon
Rat
Rhino
Rock cavy
Sheep
Shrew
Skunk
Sloth
Squirrel
Tapir
Tazmanian Devil
Tenrec
Tiger
Vicugna
Wolverine
ZebraKeep them coming, guys. We are now a little closer to the list of mammal "kinds" that Noah had on his ark.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Hi CS, What Bible you reading?Mine says: God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I already removed all aquatic and semi-aquatic mammals.

Aw, c'mon, Taz.If Adam rode a leaf chompin dino, extinct mammals count!OK. Let's see. No swimming mammals. No more cats, bears, horses, dogs.Long-beaked Echidna
Greater Bilby
Bandicoot
Talaud Bear Cuscus
Central Hare-wallaby
Black wallaroo
Large-eared TenrecOK. I've just made my way thru the first 38 species on that list.Instead of making my way thru the rest of the species, can I fudge it and include 20% (7/38) of the mammals?That's a mere 1188 mammals.Edited by molbiogirl, : bad math!

Why? The bible does not specify that some 'kinds' did not get to ride. They count or the consequences look dire for the literalist. I think you should be clear in that you don't simply mean 'the ability to swim'. You removed aquatic mammals such as dolphins, but did not remove dogs, horses, etc correct?Nice start Taz. If the list can become somewhat complete it should be a blast to watch the backflips ensue about what a kind actually is.

The flood was definitely not an extinction event on the "kind" level, as Noah saved pairs of all kinds. Therefore, any "kinds" in the fossil record that are clearly separate from existing modern "kinds" must be included. And fresh vegetation of the type found in the geological strata in which they are fossilized must have been grown on the Ark farm, as well, because modern catastrophological science tells us that they died in their various separate environments, hence the evo misconception of so-called billions of years and different epochs in the earth's history. So, you need extinct giant ferns for the extinct dinosaur kinds, etc.I can tell that you're probably a mere physicist, or something, not a professional catastrophologist.