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Author Topic:   AL (Artificial Life) and the people who love it
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 1 of 185 (417526)
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


Noodling around http://www.sciencebogs.com, I ran across this thanks to PZ Myers.
Seems the wetlab boys are giddy; they think creating life from scratch is within reach. 3-10 years!
PZ notes:
It's just a particularly complicated kind of chemistry, and it's more of a deep technical problem than anything else.
And the creos are already up in arms. PZ is already getting hate mail:
Every day millions of children are aborted and disposed of, their tiny neurological and immune systems forever lost to the universe. Man preoccupies himself with tinker-tots while daily disposing of healthy, fully developed systems.
Life-from-scratch is going to pose an ... interesting ... dilemma for creos. Not the least of which is "creating life from a buncha chemicals".
I'm curious.
What arguments might a creo offer as explanation for the inevitable evolution-in-a-petri-dish. Because believe you me, them wetlab boys aren't going to stop with a buncha oil-munching microbes. Who knows what they're gonna cook up?
Oh. btw. Should you take the opportunity to peruse PZ's site, there's a cartoon on that page that I wish I had the wherewithall to post here. I've followed the "posting images" instructions, and I can't get the dadgum thing to post.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(Artificial Life)" part to the topic title.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 08-21-2007 4:56 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 5 by jar, posted 08-21-2007 5:24 PM molbiogirl has not replied
 Message 8 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 8:43 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 08-23-2007 12:00 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 185 (417529)
08-21-2007 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


What arguments might a creo offer as explanation for the inevitable evolution-in-a-petri-dish.
People are different because they have souls that are from God.
"Evolution-in-a-petri-dish" doesn't hurt my faith, but then, evolution itself doesn't either so maybe I don't fit your qualifications for being a "creo".

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 185 (417530)
08-21-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


What arguments might a creo offer as explanation for the inevitable evolution-in-a-petri-dish.
"See? It takes an intelligent agent to make life!"

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by molbiogirl, posted 08-21-2007 4:44 PM molbiogirl has replied

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 4 of 185 (417534)
08-21-2007 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
08-21-2007 4:56 PM


"See? It takes an intelligent agent to make life!"
Ah, yes.
But!
Won't AI undermine the abiogenesis critics?

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 185 (417535)
08-21-2007 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


Creating life is inevitable.
It really is just a matter of time. And the day is getting closer and closer.
Life-from-scratch is going to pose an ... interesting ... dilemma for creos. Not the least of which is "creating life from a buncha chemicals".
Only some creos. There are many of us who would simply say, "Oh, that's one way God might have done it. Let's see what other ways he might have done it? Then let's see if any of those actually seem to be what did happen?"
The issue of creating living things is only a problem for those who worship small, picayune goddlets.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 6 of 185 (417540)
08-21-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 5:18 PM


Not really alive
molbiogirl writes:
Won't AI undermine the abiogenesis critics?
Not at all. Any man-made living material still needs God to breathe life into it, or some such nonsense. Until that happens - which it won't of course - they can happily maintain that the stuff is not really alive.
By the way, shouldn't you be talking about "AL", instead of "AI"?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 7 of 185 (417545)
08-21-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Parasomnium
08-21-2007 6:41 PM


Re: Not really alive
Bless you, Pars!
I wanted so badly to upload WTC pics last night!
Edited by molbiogirl, : poor grammar

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 8 of 185 (417552)
08-21-2007 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


Scientists have been observing precells formed on their own inside petri dishes for decades, and yet creationism are still as popular as ever. What makes you think this will be any different?

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by molbiogirl, posted 08-21-2007 4:44 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by molbiogirl, posted 08-21-2007 9:03 PM Taz has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 9 of 185 (417559)
08-21-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taz
08-21-2007 8:43 PM


Oh Taz.
I haven't any doubt that the creos will continue on, rabid as ever.
I'm just curious ... what specifically will they find bothersome about AL? It kicks the stuffing out of their contention that "Life couldn't come outta a buncha chemicals! Why that's absurd!"
(Tip o' the hat to Pars for the new acronym!)

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 Message 8 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 8:43 PM Taz has replied

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 10 of 185 (417568)
08-23-2007 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
08-21-2007 4:56 PM


Chiroptera:
"See? It takes an intelligent agent to make life!"
Which is why scientists are doing it instead of creos.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 185 (417588)
08-23-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 9:03 PM


Before the urey miller experiment, they said that organic material in general couldn't form on their own. After the experiment, they pointed out that these organic materials couldn't combine on their own to form any kind of structure that remotely resemble a cell. Precells were discovered to form naturally under certain situation. But you see, they pointed out, these weren't actual "cells" since they don't reproduce.
My prediction:
After cells are proven to be able to form on their own in certain condition, the creationists will point out that single cell organisms aren't really life and that only multicellular life will impress them.
They will continue to move the goal post until it is required for a primate to give birth to a fully grown christian white male before they will budge.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by molbiogirl, posted 08-21-2007 9:03 PM molbiogirl has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 12 of 185 (417589)
08-23-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 4:44 PM


You beat me to it!
I saw this article the other day, this should be a great discussion here.
What arguments might a creo offer as explanation for the inevitable evolution-in-a-petri-dish. Because believe you me, them wetlab boys aren't going to stop with a buncha oil-munching microbes. Who knows what they're gonna cook up?
First off, they aren't the only ones who are in a race to be the first to "create"(make) life in a petri dish.
I want to say, that they aren't making life from scratch, like God did. They are only combining existing compounds, and making a biological machine.
Will it be life? That remains to be seen.
Will it be able to replicate itself?
Will it get sick?
Will it evolve?
For me, it means nothing until it happens. The only thing I am worried about is if their so called "life" is successful, will it run amok? They are saying it won't, but why should I believe them?
They are talking about designing biological machines to help cure diseases, sounds dangerous to me.
Even if I didn't believe in God (which I didn't for most of my life) I don't feel as though we have a right to be playing games with life. That does not mean, I am against curing peoples diseases.
Here is the cartoon:

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 185 (417595)
08-23-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by riVeRraT
08-23-2007 12:00 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
riVeRraT writes:
I want to say, that they aren't making life from scratch, like God did.
Look at them goalposts run.
Do scientists have to make their own atoms before their homemade life counts? That's like saying your supper isn't really supper unless you grew all the food yourself.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 185 (417596)
08-23-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by riVeRraT
08-23-2007 12:00 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
riverrat writes:
I want to say, that they aren't making life from scratch, like God did. They are only combining existing compounds, and making a biological machine.
But these same compounds have been created countless times before in various apparatuses (apparati?).
The point of the experiment isn't to disprove god the creator, riverrat. The point is to take one step at a time to see if life can come about through natural processes. We've been able to create the organic compounds. We've seen them come together to form primitive bio machines (precells). Now, we're trying to see if a cell is a step away or not.
Even if I didn't believe in God (which I didn't for most of my life) I don't feel as though we have a right to be playing games with life. That does not mean, I am against curing peoples diseases.
I am always amused by people's nature to insert random commas in random places...
Anyway, I'm just curious. Are you against genetic engineering of any kind?
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 08-23-2007 12:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 185 (417600)
08-23-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
08-23-2007 12:14 PM


Re: You beat me to it!
Silly Ringo, scientists will have to create their own protons, electrons, neutrons, etc. until they'd have to create their own energy strings.
Molbigirl, if you're reading this, go back to your original post and press edit. Then replace "AI" with "AL" before I go crazy over it.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 08-23-2007 12:14 PM ringo has not replied

  
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