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Author | Topic: Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1261 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
quote: Maybe you're right This message has been edited by CHRIS PORTEUS jr, 09-06-2004 05:29 PM -porcelain
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1261 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
quote: What does this have to do with religious belief? People should have some responsibility. Life is not a privilege. -porcelain
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
What does this have to do with religious belief? There is nothing but religious or philosophical belief to state that human life begins at fertilization, implantation, or anywhere throughout gestation. Or if there is some objective defining line of "human life", perhaps you care to share the factual knowledge you have? And where you got it? Since all of us have the right to our own religious beliefs and the line of when life begins is wholly a religious, or philosophical exercise, abortion should be left to the religious/philosophical beliefs of the woman involved.
People should have some responsibility. Yes, people should. Indeed, people do. An abortion is NOT necessarily a sign of irresponsibility, and the ability of others to have abortions will not affect you practicing the nature of "responsibility" your religious beliefs demand.
Life is not a privilege. Indeed, so why must a woman's life be put in danger for an organism which is not necessarily alive, and certainly NOT a viable independent being? In making abortions illegal, one is saying that a fully grown woman's life IS a privilege which can be revoked in order to protect the right of a gestational being to eventually have the chance to be born. I would also go further to argue that... according to MY religious/philosophical position... children are the natural extensions of our own lives. It is the natural form of immortality/reincarnation. Therfore under what conditions one's offsrping will be born (physical, social) is an important and overriding factor in deciding whether to allow one's reproductive process to be completed. This message has been edited by holmes, 09-06-2004 06:38 PM holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1261 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
You try to pin this as religious to perhaps ease your conscience. I'm not saying human life begins there, I'm saying if you give those cells time they will eventually become a living thing.
quote: If ethics require religion you have already refuted your beliefs. -porcelain
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I'm saying if you give those cells time they will eventually become a living thing. Not on their own, though. They need to constantly steal nutrients from the mother's body.
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1261 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
quote: lol That's what you did to get here -porcelain
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I am going to upset some people, I know, but there is an issue here that needs to be addressed on this question.
In one sense, once you start arguing about "when does life begin" you need to take the argument to it's logical conclusion: the first cell. {added by edit} By the first cell, I mean the very first living cell, 3.5 billion years ago. {end edit} What is important to consider is when does the life start being human? This distinction is important: on common moral grounds it needs to be consistent with current medical practice in determining when a life has ended, as these criteria have been developed over a significant period of time with a lot of ethical input from all sides into the specific considerations involved. There are two levels considered. One is the concept of clinical death where doctors declare a patient to be dead. The other is the concept of brain dead, where the body can continue to breath and circulate blood as long as nutrients are supplied, but there is no conscious brain activity capability left. On the first the standards are clear - from the Legal Definition of Death (click):
UNIFORM DETERMINATION OF DEATH ACT 1. [Determination of Death.] An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulator and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, are dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards. That's the legal nuts and bolts of it: either failure of [heart\lung] system or total brain failure. The first category is a little more into the grey area, as it cannot be determined definitively unless the patient is taken off life support — a rather drastic test. Typically the limit of saving premature babies depends on the level of development of the lungs - before a certain point the lungs just cannot be made to function. Likewise the heart needs a certain level of development before it is capable of sustaining circulation - on it's own - within the fetus. This point follows after the brain differentiation, and so it would be the latest legal limit for using this definition of death as a threshold for life, below which the fetus has not reached the status of being legally alive. This point would have to be determined by professionals in each case, based on the actual level of development the fetus has reached. If a fetus does not meet the criteria to pass this life/death test then it legally could be declared dead, and abortion would no longer be an issue. In my opinion this sets a lower limit on the question of abortion to the point where legal death cannot be ruled out, and anything below that cannot be justified from a legal standpoint. The second standard is a little more difficult to establish on a broad cultural and social basis except by taking into considerations the beliefs of the family involved and the diversity of levels acceptable to individuals. This includes the concept of personhood. From Biology, Consciousness, and the Definition of Death (click) (excerpts - with some loss of context: see whole paper for complete context) Some philosophers and scientists have argued that the whole-brain standard does not go far enough. Several leading authors on the subject have advocated a higher-brain standard, according to which death is the irreversible cessation of the capacity for consciousness. This standard is often met prior to whole-brain death, which includes death of the brainstem -- that part of the brain which allows spontaneous respiration and heartbeat but is insufficient for consciousness. Thus, a patient in a permanent coma or permanent vegetative state (PVS) meets the higher-brain, but not the whole-brain, standard of death. From the present perspective, then, the core-meaning argument does not settle the question of the nature of human death. A more promising approach, on this view, is to take seriously the fact that we are not only organisms; we are also persons. According to one prominent argument for the higher-brain standard, the capacity for consciousness is essential to persons -- essential in the strict philosophical sense of being necessary: Any being lacking this capacity is not a person. It follows that when someone permanently loses the capacity for consciousness, there is no longer a person associated with the body. The person who was, is no more -- that is to say, she is dead. Thus, the argument goes, human death is captured by the higher-brain standard. Finally, any effort to base a standard for human death on "our" values confronts the problem of value pluralism. While liberal intellectuals, and perhaps a majority of Americans, are likely to regard a future of permanent unconsciousness as meaningless, many people -- some of them religious fundamentalists -- would disagree. For the dissenters, biological life in PVS or permanent coma is at least life and therefore valuable (perhaps infinitely so). For at least some of these people, such a state is meaningful because it is a gift from God, a gift that must not be thrown away through active killing -- or defined away with a new definition of death. It is firmly established, both in case law and in medical ethics, that competent adult patients have the right to refuse life-supporting medical treatments, even artificial nutrition and hydration. By the same token, an appropriate surrogate can refuse life-supports on behalf of the legally incompetent if there is sufficient reason to believe the patient would have refused treatment in the present circumstances. Because of this broad legal and moral right to refuse treatment, life-supports that are unwanted or are considered unhelpful -- including life-supports for permanently unconscious patients -- can be terminated without first declaring the patient dead. This last paragraph is the key to my thinking. Until the fetus has achieved the status of "personhood" discussed above, the "appropriate surrogate" - in this case the family - can decide to terminate life support, and if the patient naturally expires due to failure of the {circulator and respiratory functions} to maintain life on their own, then the legal issue is settled. Certainly in cases where continuing a pregnancy endangers the life of the mother, the doctors could perform an early-term C-section, and once the {fetus\premature child} was removed the family could direct that no heroic measures be taken to see if the {fetus\premature child} survives or dies a natural death on its own — this choice is currently legal, as there are people of certain religious beliefs that they would chose to let nature take its course and have insisted on their right to their beliefs. This certainly fits with the end of the material quoted above:
Because of this broad legal and moral right to refuse treatment, life-supports that are unwanted or are considered unhelpful -- including life-supports for permanently unconscious patients -- can be terminated without first declaring the patient dead. I submit to all for consideration, that any method that results in the removal of a fetus from a womb, but that does not harm or endanger the {patient} in any way except for the removal of life-support only by request of the immediate family, results in a legal death due to natural causes. The issue of rights is such that a standard that allows all people to enjoy a right that does not inflict harm on other persons cannot be refused, but any that tries to impose a standard that restricts such behavior for some is unethical — even though people may choose to live by that higher standard themselves (if they do not harm other persons by doing so). In this regard the concept of personhood shows where the legal choices should be allowed. Enjoy. This message has been edited by RAZD, 09-07-2004 10:02 AM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
Thank you RAZD, that is the first I've heard of that particular approach.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... so do I get a POTM for it? (image of little boy jumping up and down) huh? huh? pleeeeeze?
thanks.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
As someone who's physically been on all sides of the pregnancy/no pregnancy issue..you get a POTM from me.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
woo-hooooo!!!
% I would like to take this opportunity to thank my mother, who has been a feminist from before the word was first used, and my father who has encouraged free thinking on all social aspects and ... {{UUURKK!!!}}
Sorry for the interuption folks, the interlocutors have been directed to the proper forum for this issue. We now return you to your regular OT ... {and no, the irony of that statement is not lost on me} we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
That's what you did to get here With my mom's permission, yes.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
You try to pin this as religious to perhaps ease your conscience. Nice ad hominem. No, I actually am pointing out that the definition of life is based on religious and/or philosophical beliefs regarding human life.
I'm not saying human life begins there, I'm saying if you give those cells time they will eventually become a living thing. Then you have just refuted your own argument. I mean you are not "Pro-cells eventually will become a living thing", right? You are proLife. It would be absurd to say... and I note that you completely avoided the stronger part of my argument... that a fully grown woman's right to life gets voided as a privilege, in order to actualize the right of cells to eventually become a living thing? Remember YOU already said that life is a right, in order to defend your position. If they are just cells that may one day be life, then they don't have a right to life, as they are not alive.
If ethics require religion you have already refuted your beliefs. Ethics do not require religion, that is why I repeatedly used the word philosophy as well. However, any single person's ethics can have their foundation in a religion. In the single statement you took out of context in order to make it look like I was saying what you wanted me to say, I only used religion because I was referring to proLifers like you who generally base their ethics regarding reproduction on their religious beliefs. But this all said... if ethics required religion how would that have refuted my beliefs regarding abortion? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5840 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Just to let you know, I thought it was very well put together. Unfortunately there are some loose threads that I gotta pull...
In one sense, once you start arguing about "when does life begin" you need to take the argument to it's logical conclusion: the first cell. What is important to consider is when does the life start being human? Ask just about any proLifer and they will tell you that you start being human at the first cell as well. After all, that cell is not about to turn into a dog, or a whale, it will only become a human being, as it is made with only human precursor materials. Ergo life and humanness begin in the first cell. I think (in the future) it'd be better to say "start being a person". Personally I use more clinical sounding definitions of gestational (human) life, and fully independent (human) life. But the latter would in more practical lingo be "person".
This distinction is important: on common moral grounds it needs to be consistent with current medical practice in determining when a life has ended, as these criteria have been developed over a significant period of time with a lot of ethical input from all sides into the specific considerations involved. While I think this is interesting, I also find it somewhat...hmmmm... equivocating? That's a bit too harsh. I'll lay out my arguments and see what you think. You are correct in stating that a gestational life will fulfill the criteria of what makes a fully grown person "dead", but that is to miss an important part of the definition and what is actually happening. In both definitions the word "irreversible" is used and that is a key to the idea of death. The biological organism is simply maintaining physical existence (with aid) or is in a state of decomposition, with no realistic hope/method for reversing this state. In some operations patients are dead on the table, and I believe sometimes doctors even stop heart and respiratory functions for certain procedures. Under the classification that you just used for fetal life, that would mean they were "like dead". Well yeah, BUT they are in the middle of a process that is going to bring them back to fully grown/independent life. They do NOT have the characteristic of "irreversible". Gestational beings are wholly unlike dead beings in that they are very much alive in the active sense. They are not merely in maintenaince, nor in decomposition. They are in the middle of a process that (if it goes properly) will bring them into a fully grown/independent state. Someone could easily... or logically... argue that as one SHOULD NOT BE ABLE to stop the operation and let the patient die on the table, just because it temporarily has some characteristics of death, this also applies to gestational life. Even in the case of longterm coma patients, or severe brain damage, there is the knowledge that they are not "on the mend". You end physical maintenaince of a body that has nowhere to go but status quo (personal identity death) and eventually physical death. I guess one could say in that case one is ending the illusion that the death was still "reversible". But a gestational being is not just eating resources and being status quo. This is like knowing they are on the mend and will soon come out of the coma and deciding to pull the plug. Linking abortion of gestational beings to the definition of death gives us some pointers as to whether most of us really feel something is "alive" or a "person" during the gestational process... but that seems separate from then applying the criteria to a gestational being for validating an end to a gestational process which can "reverse" that status. I hope this makes sense, and am open to critiques of this counterargument. In the end I think it will be important to have a more extended argument regarding the status of gestational life, specifically including what impact and role that life has with respect to it's parents lives. For example your coma analogy is not sufficient in that the state is in the process of reversing. That then would not be sufficient to "cut support". However we then can assess what crash has been talking about, and that is that the "support" comes from a single person whose body is NOT a piece of equipment WE get to use. And while the gestational being may be in a reversible state, its existence can imperil the mother. That is a wholly different scenario. There is more to this of course, but I'll leave it at that for now. What it seems you have laid the groundwork for is NOT the validation of keeping abortion legal, but rather if legal, within which bounds would be the most in tune with our concept of not "hurting" another living being, legally or otherwise. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Amen to that, brother.
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