Message 32 of 81 (502725) 08-01-2005 11:40 AM

Reply to: Message 31 by Faith 08-01-2005 11:37 AM

There are no terms showing degrees of tentativity that I know of. There is the body of evidence that supports each conclusion.

Message 33 of 81 (502726) 08-01-2005 11:57 AM

Reply to: Message 32 by jar 08-01-2005 11:40 AM

TTFN,

WK

Message 34 of 81 (502727) 08-01-2005 12:05 PM

Reply to: Message 32 by jar 08-01-2005 11:40 AM

Because there is absolutely nothing that can be proven for absolutely sure? So no matter if something is in fact KNOWN to be true to an astronomic degree of probability, it still cannot be said to be "proven?" Is that correct? So now, every time I'm tempted to use the term "prove" or its variations, I have to go, "oh um, sorry I only mean proven beyond a reasonable of doubt or up to 999999999999% of perfection?

This message has been edited by Faith, 08-01-2005 12:09 PM

Message 35 of 81 (502728) 08-01-2005 12:11 PM

Reply to: Message 34 by Faith 08-01-2005 12:05 PM

# Proof theory, studied as a branch of mathematical logic, represents proofs as formal mathematical objects, facilitating their analysis by mathematical techniques. Proofs are typically presented as inductively-defined data structures, such as plain lists, boxed lists, or trees, which are constructed according to the axioms and rules of inference of the logical system. As such, proof theory is closer to syntax, while model theory is more purely semantical. Together with model theory, axiomatic s
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_(logic)

# Proof (also known as Dirty Harry) is a rapper in the D12 crew.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_(rapper)

# In mathematics, a proof is a demonstration that, given certain axioms, some statement of interest is necessarily true.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_(mathematics)

# Proof is a play by David Auburn which won the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for Drama and the 2001 Tony Award for Best Play.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_(play)

# A term from logic and mathematics describing an argument from premise to conclusion using strictly logical principles. In mathematics, theorems or propositions are established by logical arguments from a set of axioms, the process of establishing a theorem being called a proof.
www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/glossary.htm

# A coin produced by a technique involving specially prepared dies and planchets and usually several strikings. This results in particular sharpness of detail and a virtually flawless surface, usually with fields that are mirror-like. Proof coins are specifically made for collectors and not for circulation.
www.numismaticproperties.com/glossary.htm

# A smaller print, printed at 1/2 to 1/3 size or on an "A" size sheet, used to evaluate the quality of the print before an edition is begun.
www.lazarusgroup.com/resources/glossary.php

# a specially produced coin made from highly polished planchets and dies and often struck twice to accent the design. [TOP]
www.usmint.gov/kids/index.cfm

# The term Proof denotes a method of manufacture, not a grade. Proof coins are made with special care, exclusively for collectors or investors and not struck for general circulation. Generally, proof coins are struck on specially selected and polished planchets. They are struck using polished dies. Usually the coins are made on a slower moving press, and/or are struck more than once. Most proof coins are brilliant, with a mirrorlike surface.
www.numismedia.com/glossary.htm

# An impression taken at any stage in the making of a print that is not part of the edition. top
www.kqfineart.com/glossary/

# A statement of alcohol content. Proof is two times the percentage of alcohol by volume. In other words, 100 proof whiskey is 50% alcohol by volume.
www.restaurantreport.com/features/ft_bourbonglossary.html

# The first copy of the actual book, used to find errors and make necessary corrections.
www.classiclibrary.org/Glossary.html

# copy of composed type and illustrations for checking accuracy of layout, type matter and depending on the type of proof, color breaks and color reproduction
www.linnbenton.edu/printingservices/Glossary.html

# Coins struck mainly for collectors as special presentation pieces using specially polished or otherwise prepared dies.
www.coin-gallery.com/cgglossary.htm

# a coin produced from polished dies and/or planchlets. Most often each proof coin is struck twice/or more which gives the coin a very sharp degree of detail and mirror like surface. Proof coins are usually made for numistmatic purposes, presentations, or souvenirs. Proofs are usually not made to circulated in commerce. Mishandling can lower the value and grade of a proof coin. Proofs are sold by the mint during their year of production at a premium to cover their special manufacturing costs. Sometimes sold only in sets.
www.independencecoins.com/glossary.cfm

# Anything serving to establish the truth of something.
www.yourwebassistant.net/glossary/p19.htm

# A draft of the image document sent to the local draft printer.
www.board-web.lausd.k12.ca.us/help/glossary.htm

# A representation of what a page or job will look like when it is printed on a printing press. Proofs are designed to simulate, as closely as possible, the exact appearance a job will take when printed on press; many proofs are made using the same film that will be used to make the printing plates. The proof is used by the designer to verify that the page looks the way he intended, and is used by the press operator to adjust ink flow on press to match the designer's intent. A proof sometimes forms a contract between a designer
www.4dimension.com/glossary.html

# Hard copy of typeset copy or art produced during publication preparation, used for proofreading.
www.eia.doe.gov/neic/pubstyle/glossary.htm

# A smaller print - often 8 x 10 inches - used to evaluate a file prior to printing.
www.bulldogproducts.com/glossary.htm

# A proof is an impression of a print pulled prior to the regular, published edition of the print. A trial or working proof is one taken before the design on the matrix is finished. These proofs are pulled so that the artist can see what work still needs to be done to the matrix. Once a printed image meets the artist's expectations, this becomes a bon tirer ("good to pull") proof. This proof is often signed by the artist to indicate his approval and is used for comparison purposes by the printer. An artist's proof is an impression issued extra
www.donaldheald.com/glossary/glossary_01.php

# A method of checking for errors prior to printing an order. Normally the last prepress operation. A press proof is used by the printing press operator to ensure the correctness of the finished product during the production of the order.
www.graphicsquote.com/glossaryofterms.html

# Impressions pulled before the printing of the edition in which the development of the image is tracked and various inks, colors, papers, and other variables are tested.
www.nga.gov/gemini/glossary5.htm

# A proof is a sequence of statements (made up of axioms, assumptions and arguments) leading to the establishment of the truth of one finat statement.
www.ddi.cs.uni-potsdam.de/Lehre/TuringLectures/MathNotions.htm

# A representation of the printed piece, created either electronically or in print, that demonstrates what has been produced in the film or plate procedures.
www.printingyoucantrust.com/glossary.cfm

# A specially made coin distinguished by sharpness of detail and usually with a brilliant mirrorlike surfaces. Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not a condition. Pre-1968 proofs were made only at the Philadelphia Mint except in a few rare instances in which presentation pieces were struck at branch mints. Current proofs are made at the San Francisco an West Point mints.
www.coinclub.com/coininfo/gradetrm.html

# first draft copy of typeset material; also called galley proofs or galleys.
www.pnl.gov/ag/usage/pubterm.html

# Originally an IMPRESSION taken as a check on progress before work on the block, plate, or other printing surface was complete. A "touched" proof is one drawn upon by the artist. Since the eighteenth century the earlier impressions of a print have been sold as "artist's proofs" even if identical to those making up the regular EDITION. For this reason a proof in the original sense in now generally referred to as a "working" or "trial" proof.
www.sdmart.org/lautrec/Glossary.html

# A standard coin term describing a coin that the mint has created in a special manner not used for circulating coins, where the coin has a mirror-like finish. Proof coins are created by striking the coin multiple times, using higher pressure, and polishing the dies. See also BU, Proof-Like, Reverse Proof.
www.rscott.org/bullion/terms.htm

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-Aug-2005 12:13 PM

Message 36 of 81 (502729) 08-01-2005 12:33 PM

Reply to: Message 34 by Faith 08-01-2005 12:05 PM

There are some things that are so well supported that they may be considered as very, very close to being proven. Evolution is one such as is the fact of an old universe. While it is possible that either of those might be wrong, the universe could have been created yesterday, the likelyhood is so low that most people simply disregard such considerations.

You can use the general tem proof or proved as long as it is with the understanding that it really is held tentatively.

It is possible that evolution did not happen.

Message 37 of 81 (502730) 08-01-2005 12:39 PM

Reply to: Message 31 by Faith 08-01-2005 11:37 AM

Facts are facts; data.

What is held tentatively are the frameworks that scientists contruct in order to organize the facts and explain why they appear as they do.

AKA "Scientific Theories".

Theories are the explanations of the facts.

So, it is a FACT that alelle frequencies in populations change over time.

The THEORY of Evolution is the explanitory framework which explains how this happens.

Message 38 of 81 (502731) 08-01-2005 12:41 PM

Reply to: Message 36 by jar 08-01-2005 12:33 PM

Which is what I thought. This isn't about terminology, it's about the very claims that are being challenged.

But thanks for allowing me the term "proof" in at least some cases. Schrafinator denied me the right to use it EVER EVER EVER EVER. And apparently so does C Knight.

Message 39 of 81 (502732) 08-01-2005 12:42 PM

Reply to: Message 36 by jar 08-01-2005 12:33 PM

quote:

---

It is possible that evolution did not happen.

---

It is also possuble that God poofed everything into existence last Thursday.

However, both propositions have very low probabilities. :)

...and that's what science deals in.

Probabilities, not certainties.

Message 41 of 81 (502734) 08-01-2005 12:48 PM

Reply to: Message 38 by Faith 08-01-2005 12:41 PM

quote:

---

I see, and if I want to challenge that scheme of things, to say that evolution is the MOST tentative rather than the closest to being actually proven, this is simply not allowed?

---

No, no, please do challenge Evolution as much as you like.

But you must do so with the evidence, not with your own opinion.

quote:

---

Which is what I thought. This isn't about terminology, it's about the very claims that are being challenged.

---

Challenge away, but do so using evidence.

I will add that it would be very useful for you to do some asking of questions about the scientific method and what current Evolutionarytheory actually claims before you go off half cocked, ignorant of what it is you claim is incorrect.

At least attempt to understand what science is, and what the ToE claims, and some of the evidence supporting it before you try to critique it.

quote:

---

But thanks for allowing me the term "proof" in at least some cases. Schrafinator denied me the right to use it EVER EVER EVER EVER. And apparently so does C Knight.

---

Are you really telling me that you were using "proof" to mean "tentatively held based upon our current understanding"?

Truthfully, were you?

Message 42 of 81 (502735) 08-01-2005 12:55 PM

Reply to: Message 22 by Faith 08-01-2005 8:09 AM

Evolution can be defined 2 different ways.

1. ToE
2. Pretty much all change, but let's use speciation for sake of argument.

Evolutionists "prove" point 2, which no one disputes anyway, and then turn around and claim point 1 is proven, mainly because they use the same term, and they call it science.

it's a fraud, and something evolutionists ought to quit doing, but they want to maintain the non-scientific aspects of evolutionism for some reason it seems, and that's unfortunate. They would do well to listen to one of their own, Michael Ruse, but I am not so sure they can.

Message 44 of 81 (502737) 08-01-2005 1:00 PM

Reply to: Message 14 by Faith 08-01-2005 7:21 AM

I'd be willing but I think some would have a fit if I became a mod, but I would be fair and lay out my reasons, and I suspect it wouldn't always agree with all the mods anyway (as it appears that is sometimes the case between the current mods), and I think no one would thus have anything to fear.

Message 45 of 81 (502738) 08-01-2005 1:03 PM

Reply to: Message 36 by jar 08-01-2005 12:33 PM

It's hypocrisy.

Evolutionists don't play by the same standards of evidence, not here and not in the debate in general.