Before the Big Bang

An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that, in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions.

​

The plain fact is that the time available was too long, the many microenvironments on the earth's surface too diverse, the various chemical possibilities too numerous and our own knowledge and imagination too feeble to allow us to be able to unravel exactly how it might or might not have happened such a long time ago, especially as we have no experimental evidence from that era to check our ideas against.(Francis Crick, Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature, 1981, p. 88)This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 16 February 2005 12:31 AM

I said "facts", not "truth". Science deals with facts, not truth.

Would you believe, I didn't do the calculations.

---

Mihkel

I asked you on what authority you made your sweeping statements.
You disqualified my statements on the basis that I quoted authorities in the field. Do I detect the same in you?

---

Mihkel

Can a fact be an untruth?

---

Mihkel

Oh, yeah, I beleive it. I also believe you didn't think about or understand the calculations that you've seen..

No, I disqualified your statements on the basis that you misrepresented the position of one (Crick; see the quote above in Message 91) and that the other (Hoyle) was wrong. And I provided details as to exactly how and why Hoyle was wrong and a link to further detail (by a real expert in the field). No, you do not. You fail to understand that I am explaining a complex subject as simply and as best as I can in this limited medium, but providing links to places where more detailed information is available. I am not appealing to authorities as you have. Read Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations. Feel free to look up the scientific references cited therein. When you thoroughly understand that document, you will be qualified to discuss the subject.

There again, you believe too much. Before you know something, it is necessary to find out for yourself. Borrowed opinions are not reliable.

---

Mihkel

quote:

---

Why would you be miserable? You would be,just as we all are,human, and responsible completely for your actions.

---

Why would someone who believes in a random appearance of life and the universe, beyond the power to explain (big bang & evolution) be more or less responsible for their actions than someone with faith in a creator? If anything, they would be more responsible, because they realize Someone is watching! The 'most miserable' thing was paraphrasing St Paul, who said, if Jesus hadn't risen from the dead our faith would be useless, and therefore, we would be worse off than the rest of the world. Why? Because they, not believing in a life
coming after death may have secured wealth, and education, and things that believers, concerned with laying up treasures in Heaven more, would not have done.

quote:

---

Really? And what do you think I place faith in?

---

No offence, but I don't much care! The point was I thought it wrong to insult someone's faith, and say it was all in their head. What we believe is not some secret, it was done in a multitude of witnesses, and in perfect fulfillment of ancient prophesy. If you chose to not believe, or believe different, that's up to you. But you can't prove it anymore than some believer!
Specifically, where did the little near nothing or whatever you like to call it come from, and where did the fluke simple lifeform that gave us all life on earth come from? OH, sure, you could say, well it seems the evidence points to that, but that's as far as you can go?

quote:

---

LOL.Boldly spoken lad.Now show me what you think I am coming from.

---

In the post I responded to, it certainly seemed to be a place where you showed contempt for someones faith in God. -Lad.

That is all very well. You dodge my question: On what (personal) authority do you make your statements?

---

Mihkel

So post the calculations along with the data they are based upon already. Quit schmoozing and give us the schpeel! Make like a chochem and tokhis oyfin tish.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

ah what wit.

quote:

---

There again, you believe too much. Before you know something, it is necessary to find out for yourself. Borrowed opinions are not reliable.

---

So...

quote:

---

No, it is not based on my prejudices but rather the relevant literature - and the statistics of random events/mutations.

---

Coupled with.....

quote:

---

Would you believe, I didn't do the calculations.

---

Your line of reasoning is weak and confused.

Well seems like this time before the big bang thread is unraveling. Regardless of what one 'believes' the answer is beyond the scope of human knowlege.(for now) Did God create the universe? Is the universe fully deterministic? Did life spring from non life without the aid of a creator? Did the universe always exist and the Bang simply an extension of that existance? Is Evolution false? And now we are discussing poo pooing someones beliefs? IMO if one enters a discussion board on Evolution verses Creation they should be prepared to thicken they're hide a little. What would be the point if we all agreed and thought the same things. Where is the fun in that?

---

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

So, why aren't they?Why the higher rate of divorces among believers? Why are atheists so under-represented in prisons?

Why the higher rates of divorce amoung believers? cuz they aint really true believers of course. Why less atheist in prison? cuz Satan is keeping them free to spread the word there is no God.