Message 1 of 405 (98409) 01-28-2008 9:30 PM

In www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=26 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=26">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=26 to randman Rahvin said:

In www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=27 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=27">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=27 I comented on Rahvin's statement:

In www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=30 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=30">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=30 Rahvin responded:

In www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=31 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=31">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=31 I responded:

In www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=34 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=34">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=34 I was told:

I have read quite a few but I was wanting one that said "We know that the Singularity existed," as I had never seen one.

In www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=36 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=36">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=750&m=36 to Rahvin :

In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.

I will reference the Bible.
I will reference scientific papers.

Message 4 of 405 (98412) 01-28-2008 10:31 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT 01-28-2008 9:30 PM

so in essence, you want to know...before that?

ok. there was the big bang.

before that?

something. before that? before that? before that?

the before that never ends until you get to one thing.

since nothing outside of energy is real, the one thing is energy.

you calling that the singularity? and wanna know before that? another singularity? once its singular, there's nothing to be before. if nothing, the singularity wouldn't be, so only the singular energy could be, and had to be, because we are.

why? i dunno. it was. or i wouldn't be.

so if anyone truly asks "before that" your going to eventually stop at one. because as long as two things are, before that is relevant.

so , the "one" energy. what are we looking for to be able to observe it. what did it look like.

question that has to be answered: intelligent, yes or no?

the observation that cannot be ignored: singular and evolved or created. sign of intelligence. if intelligent, the action is an act of faith.

so what now? ignore the before that's? go back to the big bang? say God was created by a greater energy? wouldn't the greater energy be God?

if you follow this thread by what your asking, your going to follow my path of logic.

if you don't, what are you asking?

Message 5 of 405 (98413) 01-28-2008 10:52 PM

Reply to: Message 4 by tesla 01-28-2008 10:31 PM

I thought the OP was pretty specific as to what I wanted.

Did God create the Universe as stated in Genesis 1:1.

Did the universe come into existence at the Big Bang from singularity.

Now I have no need of you coming into my thread and repeating the same thing I have read in several different threads.

If you would like to contribute to the discussion as it unfolds I will be glad to respond to your posts but if you spam my thread I will protest.

Do you think God is the best explanation or the singularity?

Personally I think God is as I believe in divine creation.

Have fun and stay on topic.

Edited by ICANT, : correct spelling

Message 6 of 405 (98414) 01-28-2008 10:56 PM

Reply to: Message 3 by GDR 01-28-2008 10:05 PM

GDR I have no intention of making this a Bible class my basic approach will be to see if the singularity is possible. Then I will compare events as I see them concerning God to the singularity.

Message 7 of 405 (98415) 01-28-2008 11:06 PM

Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT 01-28-2008 10:52 PM

oooh i see :) sorry for misinterpreting.

i believe they are both one and the same. God is the singularity.

Message 8 of 405 (98416) 01-28-2008 11:18 PM

Reply to: Message 7 by tesla 01-28-2008 11:06 PM

Sorry for coming down so hard it is late for me and I am tired.

I believe God is everywhere and everything. I don't think we need the singularity.

And that is what I would like to explore using scientific information.

Have fun,

Edited by ICANT, : correct spellling

Message 9 of 405 (98417) 01-28-2008 11:28 PM

Reply to: Message 8 by ICANT 01-28-2008 11:18 PM

i also believe God is everywhere and everything, but it was and is also the singularity, but from the singularity came all things and the singularity did not cut off what it made from itself. but all that is that came from it is sustained by it, hence why we need it. that is my belief.

Message 10 of 405 (98418) 01-29-2008 1:42 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT 01-28-2008 9:30 PM

So we know this, that the universe has always been here but it used to be smaller?

I wonder how small.

Man, I don't know if I can wrap my head around this.

Message 11 of 405 (98419) 01-29-2008 1:47 AM

Reply to: Message 10 by Hill Billy 01-29-2008 1:42 AM

Consider the following. Suppose you are standing directly on the north pole. You ask, "what's north of here?" Is there an answer to this question? I'd say this question is nonsensical and doesn't deserve an answer. Apply this to time.

Message 13 of 405 (98421) 01-29-2008 7:58 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT 01-28-2008 9:30 PM

The Big Bang/Singularity is not the origin of the Universe, it is merely one end of it. Delving into the past just tells us what conditions were like back then, it does not tell us why the Universe exists. It may be that there is only a finite distance you can go back in time, before you reach a minimum and start heading forwards again (as with travelling north to the North Pole). It maybe that there is no minimum (at least, not at the Big Bang) and we can push through into some other region of existence. But in neither case do we gain an understanding of why the Universe exists. We merely see what came before. The past no more explains the Universe's existence than the North Pole explains the Earth's existence. All it can do is help explain why the slice of the Universe at T=now looks the way it does.

This topic and its predecessor are so littered with abuses of terminology that it is extremely difficult to respond to any particulars...

There is no such thing as conservation of matter.
Conservation of mass/energy is LOCAL and is not necessarily obeyed GLOBALLY.
The Universe is not 'made of energy' in the way that oceans are not 'made of waves'.
The singularity is the breakdown in the physics of classical General Relativity at T=0 in the Big Bang cosmology.
Strictly, the singularity does not exist as it is simply the artifact of inapplicable mathematics (as quantum General Relativity is required at this point.)
Colloquially, the singularity refers to the ultra-dense, ultra-hot state around T=0 (up to say T=10^-43 secs), and all evidence points to this very much existing.
Whether or not T=0 represents the lowest bound on T is very much work in progress.
God is not a singularity, unless you want to redefine 'singularity' to mean 'that which is God', and then it no longer has any meaning in mathematics/physics.

If there is no East
If there is no West
If there is no North

Then how can I be anywhere?

Therefore there is no North Pole...

Message 14 of 405 (98422) 01-29-2008 9:45 AM

Reply to: Message 13 by cavediver 01-29-2008 7:58 AM

cavediver this is just another one of my stupid questions and since you said it was only stupid if I didn't ask it I did.

What is abusses of terminology do you find in the above question?

You address this post to me and then start answering tesla I think.

But you did say:

Well if the singularity does not exist.

You mean the Creo's have been right all the time?

Are you saying God is a better answer than singularity?

Have fun.

Message 15 of 405 (98423) 01-29-2008 10:22 AM

Reply to: Message 11 by Taz 01-29-2008 1:47 AM

I would like to take a crack at this question even though I know it is a trick question. But you did not qualify any particulars so here goes. Your question:

The True north pole is south of the magnetic north pole and the magnetic north pole is north of the true north pole according to a compass.

Now do you have anything to add to the topic?

Have fun,