Hyper evolution in the bible

Compare to sme changes in a mouse, where the big deal is it no longer is observed to breed with it's ancestors, and is therefore a new 'species'. Neb's changes were grandiose! They were not simile changes, they were very very real changes. The guy grew feathers, and claws, and ate grss for seven years, was wet with some dew of heaven, and the whole thing was completed, of fulfilled before you could say, 'wow, man, this is no simile!'!
I don't care if you say, 'period', or not, these bigger than evolutionary observed changes took place according to the bible. It was no mind game. If I say a hurricane blew like the breath of God, and blew your house down, you can call it a simile, that it was described as the breath of God if you like, but the house still got blown away! You can say Neb's feathers were like eagle's, but they were feathers!
So cut the word games, and deal with the essence of what went on here. Anyone can say nothing in the bible is real, or means what it says, but that doesn't make it so, it simply relects their personal unbelieving attitude.
Lots of things were mentioned, as to how the addition of a spiritual component must have been there if things in the bible were real, because we know it is impossible with the present physical only! It doesn't do any good trying to say the plants didn't grow in eden, or that it took a long time, because Adam needed to eat them, as did animals, these plants. You can say the whole bible is a pack of lies and fables if you want to, but not that it doesn't tell us of things spiritual, and the spiritually affected physical.
This is the point here. With the merging of the two in our past, many things were possible, even the flood.
All these questions evos had like where did the water go? And how could the continental plates have moved quickly without great heat? And how could men live forever, or a thousand years? Or how were the animals fed after the flood? Or How could there have been a canopy, if today's physical laws would not allow it? All now answerable from God's word!

So basically you counter my "science fiction" with fairy tales? Very impressive.

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

It is no fairy tale that the bible tells us these things. He planted a garden, and in days, it was grown. It is not possible in this physical world now. Any non atheist scientist out there must know this. To deny the world of spiritual experience, and the bible, only because we believe that only this physical existed, because we can see nothing else, is to confine oneself to the 'box' of physical only. Most people on earth have always known there is more.
Since it may be ignored, but not disproved, you may believe what you want. But don't try to lay some trip on me, where anything else but the puny physical only never existed, or ever will. No one argues that it now is all man has. It is real and great. But it is a small part of the big picture, and the spiritual is not subject to mere physical only tests, restrictions, principles, or laws.
The flood involved more than the physical, the garden did as well, and heaven will too. Trying to stick it all in the box is like trying to get the ocean in a spoon.

Your position seems to be Goddunnit.what needs to be discussed or justified further than that?

Nope. Read it again:

quote:

---

The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. (Daniel 4:33)

---

It doesn't say his feathers were like eagles' feathers. It says his hair was like eagles feathers. It was still hair.No evolution.You're twisting the Bible. Shame on you.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Well, I never seen hairs that were like eagles feathers. How is a hair like an eagle feather? But I see your point.
Nevertheless, I think the changes Neb went though were more than the observed evolutionary changes men have seen! The interpretation for the feathers is open, and you are welcome to yours. Same with the claws and digestive track, stomach, etc. But it did say it was fulfilled that same hour, so a lot of changes happened, even as now some changes appear to happen, but when the spiritual is added, things move quickly!!!! In my opinion the changes were greater than the sexual preferences of a mouse!

Your point is that Goddinnotdoit! You have zero proof for your point, except the physical only, which only applies to the present, and near past! But many scientists and man of reason do believe in a supernatural, even many in Jesus. So the fact that the bible allows for a spiritual added world, (universe)-where the flood, and the bible can be explained as to why the puny physical only evidence does not always square up, is important. So, for the dyed in the wool physical only -no God or spiritual at all types, I'm afraid it is 2 beliefs that son't meet.

Of course it isn't, how stupid do you think I am? I can open a Bible and read what it says. But "the things that you're liable to read in the Bible, it ain't necessarily so", or to spell it out gently: I think it's a bit naive to take the Bible literally. That's why it's a fairy tale. Wrong. Most people on earth have, for the most part of history, known practically zilch about how the world really works. Only in the last few centuries have some brilliant minds been able to figure out a bit of the truth. And the fact that most people still don't get the message doesn't give much hope that mankind will grow up any time soon.

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

I hope you realise that this way of reasoning only multiplies the number of competing "theories". Your fellow creationists will not be pleased, I'm afraid: now "God did it" must not only take on evolution, which already proves a formidable task because it actually does come with an abundance of evidence, but also "crazy alien on mushrooms dreamt up the universe", "pink invisible unicorn farted the universe into existence", and a whole host of other, let's be frank, nonsensical fairy-tales, all of which have no evidence whatsoever speaking for them.

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

quote:

---

I think it's a bit naive to take the Bible literally

---

So what? Oh well, at least you have an opinion.

quote:

---

That's why it's a fairy tale

---

In no way is this true. It demonstrates why science has arrived at fairy tales for orgin theories, there was more than just the physical at work. This isn't opinion, it's bible. There had to be. The physical is a part of it, as was Jesus' ressurected body, both physical and spiritual- witnessed as well.

quote:

---

And the fact that most people still don't get the message doesn't give much hope that mankind will grow up any time soon

---

Ha. They will never grow up with your message, what were you saying about 'how stupid do you think' ---let's put a they here, instead of 'I'. How stupid do you think they are?

quote:

---

I'm afraid: now "God did it" must not only take on evolution, which already proves a formidable task because it actually does come with an abundance of evidence, but also "crazy alien on mushrooms dreamt up the universe",.... (etc)

---

We already take on everything that needs to be addressed. But you seem a little confused here, many bible believers do not feel any need to deny other supernatural things at all, as many, if not most do involve some spiritual. It is a certain pig headed element of the religiously physical only science types who have the world of supernatural to try make go away!

How can one try to make something go away, when it isn't there in the first place? You have already stated your position quite clearly in your own posts that the Edenic world consisted of a unification of the physical and spiritual, but that this unity was shattered early in the history of humanity. You yourself have said that there is no longer any spiritual element to the world we now inhabit.This is why you have said (my emphasis)and qedWhat do you want scientists to do about it? It's not their job to worry about aligning your strange religious beliefs to the facts of the physical world.Mick

quote:

---

How can one try to make something go away, when it isn't there in the first place? You have already stated your position quite clearly in your own posts that the Edenic world consisted of a unification of the physical and spiritual, but that this unity was shattered early in the history of humanity. You yourself have said that there is no longer any spiritual element to the world we now inhabit.

---

Well, my feeling about the split these days, is that it came in the days of Peleg, which was after the flood (completed). Thats not all that early in our history. Also there is very much a spiritual element to our world today. Not in the sense the universe is composed of both together, but in the sense that the spiritual is routinely locally affecting things! In other words, miracles, and healings, dreams, prophesies, guardian angels, salvation, inspiration, protection, supply, etc etc etc.

quote:

---

What do you want scientists to do about it? It's not their job to worry about aligning your strange religious beliefs to the facts of the physical world

---

No need to do that so much as to stop aligning a belief in only the physical - with things in the far past, or future. This is the area, where a conflict of beliefs emerge, and the essence of what we are talking about here. Within the box, here in the physical universe, there really isn't the same kind of debate about. In the box itself, my debate would not be 'is there nuclear power'? But, 'Why not rid the world of all nuclear weapons, and have your country be the first to do it!?'.

And how is the Bible not opinion? If the Bible is proof, then rabbits and playing cards can talk, because then Alice in Wonderland must be admitted as proof too. Do you believe playing cards can talk and play croquet? Do you believe a little girl can cry a sea? Why not? It's right there in the pages of Lewis Carrol's book! Now, if that isn't proof... then neither is the Bible. Do you see my point? How smart or stupid people are is related to the education they receive. As long as they accept the religious drivel they're being fed as an explanation for how the world works, they will remain stupid. Science tells them stories they can check. Moreover, science gets them results, like medication, which helps cure diseases, something which cannot verifiably be said of things like healing stones, or prayer. Science also performs "miracles": if you tell me God talks to you, I'd say you're nuts, but if I tell you that someone on the other side of the planet talks to me, you'd have to acknowledge that it's science that makes this possible. You yourself are using the results of science on a daily basis, yet you dismiss its validity. How's that?This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 15-Jul-2005 09:52 AM

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

It's not just a matter of not denying other supernatural things. The problem is that the supernatural stories contradict each other. You cannot both believe that God created the world and that a pink unicorn farted it into existence. These two stories are mutually exclusive.Because I don't know exactly how 'simple' you are, let me explain that the pink unicorn is an example and a place holder for other creation myths people really believe in. Indeed, I couln't agree more, about the pigheadedness, that is. If it weren't for certain pigheaded scientific types, we'd still be living in the dark ages.As Mick already pointed out, you cannot make something go away if it isn't there in the first place. But I would like to slightly modify that argument in that I think the supernatural does exist, namely in people's minds, and it's from there that science should try and make it go away.

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins