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Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
The New York Times Magazine carries a feature this week by Robin Marantz Henig. Under the rather misleading title 'Darwin's God,' the article offers an extensive discussion of ongoing scientific investigations into the origin of religious belief.
The complexity of the question facing scientists is noted early. The debate over why belief evolved is between byproduct theorists and adaptationists.[...] But a scientist’s personal religious view does not always predict which side he will take. And this is just one sign of how complex and surprising this debate has become.[....] According to anthropologists, religions that share certain supernatural features ” belief in a noncorporeal God or gods, belief in the afterlife, belief in the ability of prayer or ritual to change the course of human events ” are found in virtually every culture on earth. That's a taste. The full article may be found here:Evolution and Religion - Darwin’s God - Robin Marantz Henig - The New York Times __ Archer All species are transitional.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Archer Opterix writes: He began to look for a sideways explanation: if religious belief was not adaptive, perhaps it was associated with something else that was Hm...moral codes leap to mind. If most religions produce a moral code that must be followed there are obviously some moral behaviours which benefit survival. But this is not a great answer, because we are still unsure which codes best benefit survival, or whether we are ultimately looking for survival on earth or in an after-life, or survival of a group, or of the whole species. At the least, many codes benefited survival at one time[/b], or they benefited a sliver of the population, which is survival of the fittest. Yet, many codes of the most ancient religions had no real benefit to life...instead of learning more about nature, using song and dance, voodoo, charms and spells, etc, would be a quite useless way to promote survival in terms of crops and hunting or weather. I know I have a time and a half supporting my claims, but I would say religion has benefits, but the scientists are looking in the wrong place for them. They are not about survival of the body or the species. There is nothing which supports that. I could say that scientists are assuming no God, and looking for a natural reason to explain religion, but even so, if they find one, good for them. I would be interested, but not exactly holding my breath. I could also say that religion is part of a search for a perfect moral code, and atheism is part of this too...that it is not something post hoc and long obsolete, but an ongoing trial and error. The problem is still, that many moralities did not and do not = survival, but then again, many old religious ideas have died out, and many old tribes have died out when faced with new ideas. The amount of survival still going on regardless of failed moralities is a bit instinctual in its own. To be more clear; We have some instincts when it come to survival. We also have a great amount of intelligence, and enough so that we can make decisions about our instincts. I believe that 'instinct' in the pure sense of food, drink, shelter, procreation, and care of young, wins out over the created 'intelligent' survival methods, and that there is enough real survival going on to counteract any failed intelligent methods. But, you know me I think we know how to survive, and I think religion is about something we don't know...
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Maybe religion is a natural byproduct of intelligence mixed with ignorance. Maybe an intelligence that requires answers but that does not have the knowledge to fulfill those answers is liable to invent the most plausible explanation it can muster because it is more advantageous to status and esteem than just admitting ignorance.
Maybe. Like most evo psych is maybe.
and I think religion is about something we don't know... So do I but probably not in the way you meant........
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2504 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Very good article, Archer, thanks for putting in the link.
Archer (quoting from the article) writes: The debate over why belief evolved is between byproduct theorists and adaptationists Both sides have interesting ideas. Religion is a complex thing, and I suspect that some aspects of it may be "byproduct" and others "adaptive". Because of the many aspects of religion, I don't see why it has to be all one or the other. I'd recommend the article to anyone interested in religion.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
quote: Yeah, I wouldn't do so quickly either. Not because I'm afraid of African Voodoo magic, but because I don't trust the lecturer - he may have put sharp objects, or poisonous snakes or something in there. I'm not risking my hand without good evidence that it is safe.
quote: Yes, this is the direction I see Dawkins going in too. He likens religion to the tendancy for moths to fly into flames; it is a disadvantage itself, and is a byproduct of keeping a light source at a fixed acute angle, but is offset by the bigger advantage of navigation in areas without flames. Likewise, he tends to lean toward religion being the by-product of obeying ones parents unconditionally, trusting the tribal elders and various cognitive biases (such as 'Clustering Illusion, Confirmation Bias and The Bandwagon Effect), all of which have some evolutionary advantage to them. "And, lo, a great beast did stand before me, having seven heads, and on each head were there seven mouths, and in each mouth were there seventy times seven teeth. For truly there were seven times seven times seven times seventy teeth, meaning there were. . . okay, carry the three, adding twenty. . . plus that extra tooth on the third mouth of the sixth head. . . Well, there were indeed a great many teeth" - The Revelation of St. Bryce the Long-Winded
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Doddy refers to reluctance of subjects to put their hands into the box:
Yeah, I wouldn't do so quickly either. Not because I'm afraid of African Voodoo magic, but because I don't trust the lecturer - he may have put sharp objects, or poisonous snakes or something in there. I'm not risking my hand without good evidence that it is safe. I had a similar thought. The researcher, as described, seems remarkably naive about all the variables. I don't trust the designer of the box. Why should I? The lecturer has just told me this box 'destroys' things. That statement alone offers reason enough to be wary. Sounds like the box's designer is a religious zealot and, anyway, I've been told point blank that the box is designed to do damage. One doesn't go willy-nilly risking a perfectly good hand until one learns more. Anyway, I know what those empty boxes can do. I've read Dune. ___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
bluegenes: I'd recommend the article to anyone interested in religion. I'm glad you found it useful. I know we've had discussions on the same subject here only recently, but the article offers more information about the state of research than we usually get. As writings for non-specialists go it's a detailed and extensive discussion. One certainly gets a sense of the complexities.___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo. Archer All species are transitional.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2504 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
An interesting idea is that doing science must be partly "byproduct" as well. Just about everything that we discover is counter-intuitive.
Our evolving ancestors required down to earth practical minds, so the ability to understand Einstein's theories or Quantum mechanics must surely be a symptom of evolutionary "byproduct" rather than having any "adaptive" advantage. Characteristics like imagination would certainly have had adaptive advantages originally, but many (if not most) of the ways in which we use such abilities in modern cultures could certainly be regarded as byproduct usages.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Interesting article.
In looking at whether religion provides survival advantages, my thoughts go towards why do humans tell stories? Did the ability to create fictional characters and situations evolve for a survival need or is it a byproduct of reason? We evolve to reason and problem solve, but what to think about when we don't have a problem to solve. How do we pass on the solutions to the next generation, etc.? So maybe what evolved for a survival need went amuck. Our imagination can work for us or against us. So maybe religion does fall in the spandrel category. Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Many people take comfort in religion. When a loved one dies the emotional fall out experienced is extremly debilitating. Depression will cause extreme lethargy and result in the individual being unable to fuction.
Some cognitive apparatus that can reduce these effects- "he's not dead, he's waiting for you in the afterlife" -would greatly reduce the deficit in function following such a loss and contribute towards the organisms survival. We can go on to see how any hardship that people go through (that can cause disorders such as depression, generalised anxiety disorder, OCD, PTSD, (to name but a few)) can can be mitigated if you honestly believe that it all has a purpose and is under some control. The unpredictability of the primative cultures environment would have caused all sorts of aberrant behaviour. Some autistic people who cannot propperly generalise learning experience extreme anxiety and depression as a result of 'not know the rules of reality'. Primative cultures certainly knew much less than we do now about the natural world. A system of 'universal rules' derived from religion would greatly reduce this distress and allow every one to agree how the world works. Teaching young men that if you die in battle you go to an after life in glory is a great way to protect the community during times of war. Religion has many measurable advantages for the community, much fewer however for the indiviual. Thats evolution for you, albeit of a psychosocial sort.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2504 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Larni writes: Many people take comfort in religion. When a loved one dies the emotional fall out experienced is extremly debilitating. Depression will cause extreme lethargy and result in the individual being unable to fuction.Some cognitive apparatus that can reduce these effects- "he's not dead, he's waiting for you in the afterlife" -would greatly reduce the deficit in function following such a loss and contribute towards the organisms survival. That's the exact example I was thinking of to make an argument for the "adaptive" side. It could, perhaps, be countered by pointing out that the less superstition there is in a human population group, the better it seems at achieving lower infant and child mortality rates. A profound belief in the afterlife might make people more careless in this one. Westerners are sometimes surprised by the level of fatalism that still exists in traditional religious societies. If you're going to make a long journey in a third world bus on pot-holed roads, I think you'd be better off with a driver who has his doubts about the Gods than with one who's a firm believer!
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
bluegenes writes: It could, perhaps, be countered by pointing out that the less superstition there is in a human population group, the better it seems at achieving lower infant and child mortality rates. Yeah, but medical science goes hand in hand with, er....science; not religion.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2504 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Yeah, but medical science goes hand in hand with, er....science; not religion. I agree. But if we could find examples of religion impeding the progress of science, both now and in the past (and I think we can) then doesn't my point hold up? Going back to our ancient evolving ancestors. Would a tribe living near a very active live volcano really profit (in evolutionary terms) by having a belief that their food offerings to the volcano God would stop future eruptions? Moving to a safe distance might be a better way of ensuring the survival of their genes.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Living near a volcano has the advantage of fertile soil, but if you are a credulous primative would'ent you not want to risk the ire of the volcano god by not offering up sacrifice?
Moving away is a great idea in a rational world: but, our brains are not logical. This is a very a good thing too! Most people are irrationaly optimistic and it has been shown that depressed people are better predictors of probability (in terms of predicting likely out comes) than the non depressed individual. We need this irrationality just to get through the day. It comes with a price tag though: a predisposition to catching religion.
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