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Author Topic:   Evolution Simplified
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 61 of 170 (310000)
05-07-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
05-06-2006 7:03 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Nemesis,
I would like to ask you to please break up long blocks of text. You had several paragraphs there. I have some visual problems. I did actually struggle through it and read the whole thing but it's so easy to enter blank lines to create paragraphs and makes this whole process so much easier.
I'll demonstrate in the quote box. You would probably have chosen different places to insert spaces. I'm just doing this to demostrate readibility as it effects comprehension. The spacing can also aid with comprehension by grouping your ideads into sub units.
WITH NO SPACING:
I think any evolutionist, by necessity, eventualy will have to rest their claims on the transfer and mutation of genes. The reason why they are so adamant on this point is that the theory would collapse without it. Mathematician and molecular biologist, Harold Morowitz, calculated the odds that just one paramecium arranging DNA by chance, is: 1 in 10 to the billionth power. To help aggrandize the enormity of this improbability, 10 to the 50th power is considered, ”absolute zero.’ When you reach absolute zero, it is so improbable that we might as well say that it is impossible. That's just to arrive at any lifeforms at all. But since the First Cause can never be witnessed again, lets just speak about already extant beings for the time being. The fact is most mutations are silent. They are mostly benign deletions from copying errors in the genes. Its important to note, however, that the only reason most mutations are benign is because of specific cells that serve to repair mutations. In fact, it is their only function. Therefore, in all actuality, all mutations are truly harmful, especially if these specific cells, themselves, are the product of a mutation. There would be nothing to stop these free radicals from culturing rogue, mutated cells without their assistance. We now know that genes are composed of DNA strands, a magnificently complex molecule. DNA is an encoded message or language. The language has four letters, which form 64, three letter words. The function of the gene acts as a blueprint to tell the cell how to build a particular protein, of which I already described in a previous post how astronmically improbable it is just to arrive at one protein. Anyway, the genes are provided with basic instructions for creating protein insulin, myoglobin, hemoglobin, etc. Though most mutations are neutral, a very large percentage is devastatingly harmful. A prime example of a harmful mutation would be cancer, which I already touched upon. In the most rare occasions, a mutation can be beneficial. This kind of mutation is not truly advantageous, however. For instance, many evolutionists use Sickle Cell Anemia as a prime example of a good mutation. It is premised upon the idea that the disease effects mostly the Negro population, and because the Negro population is greatest in the malaria stricken continent of Africa, it has served to benefit their survival, because SCA can act as a barrier to Malaria. They also cite that SCA only effects people adversely when it is carried through both the female and the male’s chromosomes. So, if the mutant gene is found in only one host, the individual is known as a ”carrier.’ He or she carries the gene and it serves as an immunity. What they fail to realize is, the more individuals that procreate, the greater and more frequent the disease will be, and the less the immunity will be. The ”immunity’ will literally be bred out of existance. Aside from this, its as if no one has taken into consideration how terrible this disease really is? So, you don’t have Malaria, but now you have Sickle Cell Anemia? I just don’t see how that is any better since SCA is a degenerative disease that prevents the proper oxygenation of cells. The red blood cells become deformed, taking the form of a crescent moon (hence the name, Sickle cell), and thus, prevent hemoglobin from properly passing through and oxygenating the body. If your cells do not receive the proper amount of oxygen then they will become ischemic. If the cells starve for oxygen, they die. If your cells die, you die. It’s as simple as that. So, that's how I disagree that mutation could be the propulsion of macroevolution. In other words, it effects reproduction because the more people breed, the more this disease will effect us by removing the immunity. Therefore, I don't agree that SCA, or any other mutation, could be advantageous.... (I'll be cautious here): There are no truly advantageous mutations that I know of and I've heard lots of testimonies on it.
WITH SPACING
I think any evolutionist, by necessity, eventualy will have to rest their claims on the transfer and mutation of genes. The reason why they are so adamant on this point is that the theory would collapse without it.
Mathematician and molecular biologist, Harold Morowitz, calculated the odds that just one paramecium arranging DNA by chance, is: 1 in 10 to the billionth power. To help aggrandize the enormity of this improbability, 10 to the 50th power is considered, ”absolute zero.’ When you reach absolute zero, it is so improbable that we might as well say that it is impossible.
That's just to arrive at any lifeforms at all. But since the First Cause can never be witnessed again, lets just speak about already extant beings for the time being. The fact is most mutations are silent. They are mostly benign deletions from copying errors in the genes. Its important to note, however, that the only reason most mutations are benign is because of specific cells that serve to repair mutations. In fact, it is their only function. Therefore, in all actuality, all mutations are truly harmful, especially if these specific cells, themselves, are the product of a mutation.
There would be nothing to stop these free radicals from culturing rogue, mutated cells without their assistance. We now know that genes are composed of DNA strands, a magnificently complex molecule. DNA is an encoded message or language. The language has four letters, which form 64, three letter words. The function of the gene acts as a blueprint to tell the cell how to build a particular protein, of which I already described in a previous post how astronmically improbable it is just to arrive at one protein.
Anyway, the genes are provided with basic instructions for creating protein insulin, myoglobin, hemoglobin, etc. Though most mutations are neutral, a very large percentage is devastatingly harmful. A prime example of a harmful mutation would be cancer, which I already touched upon.
In the most rare occasions, a mutation can be beneficial. This kind of mutation is not truly advantageous, however. For instance, many evolutionists use Sickle Cell Anemia as a prime example of a good mutation. It is premised upon the idea that the disease effects mostly the Negro population, and because the Negro population is greatest in the malaria stricken continent of Africa, it has served to benefit their survival, because SCA can act as a barrier to Malaria. They also cite that SCA only effects people adversely when it is carried through both the female and the male’s chromosomes.
So, if the mutant gene is found in only one host, the individual is known as a ”carrier.’ He or she carries the gene and it serves as an immunity. What they fail to realize is, the more individuals that procreate, the greater and more frequent the disease will be, and the less the immunity will be. The ”immunity’ will literally be bred out of existance. Aside from this, its as if no one has taken into consideration how terrible this disease really is?
So, you don’t have Malaria, but now you have Sickle Cell Anemia? I just don’t see how that is any better since SCA is a degenerative disease that prevents the proper oxygenation of cells. The red blood cells become deformed, taking the form of a crescent moon (hence the name, Sickle cell), and thus, prevent hemoglobin from properly passing through and oxygenating the body. If your cells do not receive the proper amount of oxygen then they will become ischemic. If the cells starve for oxygen, they die. If your cells die, you die. It’s as simple as that.
So, that's how I disagree that mutation could be the propulsion of macroevolution. In other words, it effects reproduction because the more people breed, the more this disease will effect us by removing the immunity. Therefore, I don't agree that SCA, or any other mutation, could be advantageous.... (I'll be cautious here): There are no truly advantageous mutations that I know of and I've heard lots of testimonies on it.
This is a sincere request. It will be much appreciated.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2006 7:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:56 PM lfen has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 170 (310001)
05-07-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 1:54 PM


Re: The heart of the matter.
quote:
The problem is, I can't think of one instance in where cancer, Down Syndrome, or Cystic Fibrosis benefitted anyone in any way.
No claim has been made that all novel traits are beneficial.
Anyway, how about Hemoglobin C? People who have hemoglobin C have increased resistance to malaria. A very few people with hemoglobin C might be at risk for very slight anemia, but most people with hemoglobin C are completely healthy. Can you see a possible benefit for this relatively recent mutation?
What about nylon digestion? A certain bacterium was found that was able to digest nylon -- this bacterium was found in waste associated with nylon production. Would this be a beneficial mutation?
-
quote:
Right, and I don't contend with that. We know that small adaptations occur.
Your use of the word "adaptation" suggests that you agree that novel beneficial (in a reproductive sense) traits can appear in a population, and that after a number of generations most of the population will have these traits -- that is what "adaptation" means.
I'll wait for your response in case this isn't what you meant.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 1:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 170 (310003)
05-07-2006 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by lfen
05-07-2006 2:23 PM


Re: the selection of traits
quote:
Reading this I'm wondering if you are making the distinction between DNA the molecule and the sequences of the bases that construct the molecule?
I'm referring to the vast difference in sequencing.
Being that that we all have A,T,C,G structure, at some point if a true macroevolutionary progress due to mutation was going to occur, then it would have made itself evident by now. This is what was hoped for in Goldschmidt's 'Hopeful Monster' theory. He was was subsequently laughed at by his own peers over it. Then Gould and Eldrigde pruned the theory with punctuated equilibrium. In any case, there does seem to be an inviolate gulf affixed between us. If there wasn't, we'd expect to see humans and chimps able to procreate or a chance mutation so catastrophic that a human could actually birth a Chimpanzee (or whatever) for no good reason. Now, this isn't to say that some chimera's have been genetically spliced in the lab. But all this really is, is splicing a small segment of one creatures code onto another. But you couldn't splice together the sequence that creates an elephants trunk onto a human. In other words, if the principle is there, yet it doesn't happen in nature, then what compels to think it ever happened at all through a natural process?
quote:
Can you pick an example of two species that are closely related but incapable of interbreeding
quote:
I almost get the impression you might be thinking the Octopi write in Hebrew and Humans in Chinese say.
No, its the same letters, but the sequence is so vastly different so as to not create these abberations. And this is what I meant by humans sharing 52% sequence similarity from a banana, but it doesn't mean that we evolved from fruit.
quote:
Alphabet is also misleading in a sense because DNA and RNA I think are more accurately thought of as templates for the assembly of proteins.
Yeah, that's right. Its like a language system, concievably similar to the language code of computer programming. But the kind of genetic tailoring macroevolution speaks of would be required of a Programmer to institute a new policy. Even if you were to use Artificial Intelligence to show that it can do it all on its own, it was still required of a programmer to insert the capability to begin with.
This message has been edited by nemesis_juggernaut, 05-07-2006 02:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by lfen, posted 05-07-2006 2:23 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2006 3:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 66 by happy_atheist, posted 05-07-2006 3:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 67 by lfen, posted 05-07-2006 3:22 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 71 by Quetzal, posted 05-07-2006 11:05 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 170 (310007)
05-07-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by lfen
05-07-2006 2:36 PM


Re: the selection of traits
quote:
I would like to ask you to please break up long blocks of text
I'm sorry.
I will absolutely accomodate that request.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by lfen, posted 05-07-2006 2:36 PM lfen has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 65 of 170 (310008)
05-07-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 2:45 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Being that that we all have A,T,C,G structure, at some point if a true macroevolutionary progress due to mutation was going to occur, then it would have made itself evident by now.
We've observed that it has, and many of those observations have been presented to you. You've had no response in each case except to say "no, that didn't happen" and call your opponents liars, as you called me in another thread.
It's starting to get a little ridiculous.
If there wasn't, we'd expect to see humans and chimps able to procreate or a chance mutation so catastrophic that a human could actually birth a Chimpanzee (or whatever) for no good reason.
You'll have to explain how that's something we'd expect to see. Humans giving birth to chimpanzees would disprove evolution, not be something we'd expect to see.
No, its the same letters, but the sequence is so vastly different so as to not create these abberations.
Sequences are arbitrary. We can put any genetic sequence into any other, and the cell will produce those proteins.
Because those proteins, though, are being produced in the wrong environment, we find that they often have detrimental effects. But often they don't. The fact that we can do it in the lab proves that it can happen in nature, too.
But the kind of genetic tailoring macroevolution speaks of would be required of a Programmer to institute a new policy.
In the natural world, the environment itself programs the policy. The environment determines what sequences are selected for or against, something that a designer does in genetic programming.
Even if you were to use Artificial Intelligence to show that it can do it all on its own, it was still required of a programmer to insert the capability to begin with.
The capability to what? I think you've failed to understand what genetic programming is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4935 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 66 of 170 (310012)
05-07-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 2:45 PM


Re: the selection of traits
In any case, there does seem to be an inviolate gulf affixed between us. If there wasn't, we'd expect to see humans and chimps able to procreate...
I'd be interested to know how likely it is that we could procreate with our closest relatives. We have one less chromosome than chimps as far as I know, which may make it impossible to successfully reproduce.
...or a chance mutation so catastrophic that a human could actually birth a Chimpanzee (or whatever) for no good reason.
As far as I know the average number of mutations from parent to child is 10-15. Most of those will have no functional effect i'm sure. Even if they did, that wouldn't come close to being enough changes to produce a chimpanzee-like creature. Why exactly do you think it should be a likely occurence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 05-07-2006 3:36 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 67 of 170 (310016)
05-07-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 2:45 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Even if you were to use Artificial Intelligence to show that it can do it all on its own, it was still required of a programmer to insert the capability to begin with.
I am in awe of the complex interactions of the universe. Science gives me an appreciation for the scale and intricacy even intimacy that the universe exhibits from quantum level to the galactic phenomena. I don't propose to explain it (would be OT anyway) and you are quite welcome to your explanations. But it all does fit. Particles and forces make possible atoms, atoms making molecules and in the case of life molecules making proteins.
Do you agree that the universe is complex? And that science studies and attempts to understand the complexity manifested by observation, experimentation, and modeling?
But the kind of genetic tailoring macroevolution speaks of would be required of a Programmer to institute a new policy. Even if you were to use Artificial Intelligence to show that it can do it all on its own, it was still required of a programmer to insert the capability to begin with.
It appears we both see the universe as having the "capability to begin with". I don't know what you mean by new policy. To me it appears that the universe has one policy: that the diversity of the universe is based on common interacting elements. All molecules are made of atoms, all atoms of particles, etc.
I don't understand why you are saying there must be a "new policy". I mean if we only consider particles then atoms are like a new policy but they are there as a capability of the universe. Molecules are a new policy of sorts for atoms but again a capability of the universe. So proteins are a "new" policy, and then replicating proteins and then cells. At this point we know more about some of these "policies" then we do others.
Once we have cells using DNA and RNA to replicate themselves we have another capability of the universe. The interactions of matter and energy results in changes in these molecules and these changes in sequence result (among other things) in different proteins being synthesized. A change could result in a protein being synthesized that had never been synthesized before. Would this new protein be what you mean by a new policy?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 170 (310017)
05-07-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by happy_atheist
05-07-2006 3:14 PM


Re: the selection of traits
I fear that this may be going off-topic, but I can't resist:
quote:
We have one less chromosome than chimps as far as I know, which may make it impossible to successfully reproduce.
One of the human chromosomes looks exactly like two chimpanzee chromosomes joined end-to-end. So the reason that humans have one less chromosome than chimps is that sometime after the human/chimp split, a pair of chromosomes joined together.
Now, this is not sufficient by itself to prevent interbreeding; I think that there may be examples of this type of chromosome fusion where the individuals with now differing numbers were still interfertile. In fact, they have to be interfertile, otherwise that first individual with the fused chromosomes could not pass on the fused chromosomes into the next generation.
So, if humans and chimps are not interfertile, it is because of greater differences in the genome than simply the chromosome number.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by happy_atheist, posted 05-07-2006 3:14 PM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by happy_atheist, posted 05-07-2006 6:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2535 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 69 of 170 (310047)
05-07-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 1:54 PM


Re: The heart of the matter.
The problem is, I can't think of one instance in where cancer, Down Syndrome, or Cystic Fibrosis benefitted anyone in any way.
cancer isn't beneficial, that's true. Down syndrome isn't benficial, that's true. But there are several disorders and mistakes that are beneficial.
Why do you think Africa has such a high rate of sickle-cell anemia? It helps them survive malaria, a disease that is quite prevalent there.
Why do you think Europe has such a high rate of cystic fibrosis? It helps them survie a disease (typhoid? its somewhere in my bio notes, but where in all three hundred pages I don't know).
If they survive longer, they get more chances to reproduce.
As to the rest of your post, what about transitional fossils?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 1:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4935 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 70 of 170 (310066)
05-07-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Chiroptera
05-07-2006 3:36 PM


Re: the selection of traits
One of the human chromosomes looks exactly like two chimpanzee chromosomes joined end-to-end. So the reason that humans have one less chromosome than chimps is that sometime after the human/chimp split, a pair of chromosomes joined together.
Now, this is not sufficient by itself to prevent interbreeding; I think that there may be examples of this type of chromosome fusion where the individuals with now differing numbers were still interfertile. In fact, they have to be interfertile, otherwise that first individual with the fused chromosomes could not pass on the fused chromosomes into the next generation.
So, if humans and chimps are not interfertile, it is because of greater differences in the genome than simply the chromosome number
Yes, I was aware that the difference in chromosome numbers was due to a fusion of two other chromosomes (way too much time reading this forum!) But as you say I can now see that the differing numbers of chromosomes aren't enough of a reason to say we're not interfertile. I imagine that's one scientific study that won't get done though, and definitely off topic to this thread anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 05-07-2006 3:36 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5894 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 71 of 170 (310154)
05-07-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 2:45 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Hi NJ,
I have a new thread posted and approved (thanks Nosey) which is a response to your message 46 in this thread. The link is Mutations made Easy. Although the opening post is a direct response to your message, I'd like that thread to discuss mutations (how they work, etc), as well as from where your disagreement arises. It could be very interesting. Hope you will be able to join in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
DrFrost
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 170 (310605)
05-09-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Chiroptera
05-03-2006 6:01 PM


RE: Evolution Simplified
Your post really seems to be an outline of natural selection. There are mountains of evidence for natural selection. And while natural selection is a key component of evolution, it doesn't address some key issues that the larger theory attempts to.
For example: How did the first species come about? Your outline doesn't really answer this question at all. It only deals with species diverging and becoming more complex over time. Natural selection doesn't answer this question in general, since it too is about species diverging and filling in environmental niches. The ToE attempts to do so. In my estimation, that's a very important question and a very crucial part of the ToE.
We have evidence that life existed on this planet more than 3.8+ billions years ago. Complex single-celled microbes no less! Prior to 3.9 billion years ago the earth was extremely harsh (according to the best evidence at any rate). It only after that that we really had oceans and a solid crust. Basically, as soon as earth could possibly support life as we know it, there it was! This raises a lot of very interesting questions. And I don't care what side of the argument you fall on, if this doesn't totally amaze and fascinate you then you need to find another topic of interest. (Sort of like the proof for the infinitude of primes... if you don't find it to be a thing of utter beauty then number theory may not be the right topic for you.)
References:
Minik T. Rosing and Robert Frei, “U-Rich Archaean Sea-Floor Sediments from Greenland”Indications of >3700 Ma Oxygenic Photosynthesis,” Earth and Planetary Science Letters 6907 (2003): 1-8.
J. William Schopf, Cradle of Life: The Discovery of Earth’s Earliest Fossils (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1999), 3.
There are also some real complexities that you leave out of your discussion that become quite irksome to explain when you know more about genetics. I guess I can't fault a one page summary with leaving out that level of detail.
But I do think it would be more accurate to term your discussion as "natural selection simplified." (If you disagree, please point out which parts of your summary you would not include under natural selection.)
Allow me to applaud you for providing actual content by the way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Chiroptera, posted 05-03-2006 6:01 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Chiroptera, posted 05-09-2006 8:06 PM DrFrost has replied
 Message 74 by kuresu, posted 05-09-2006 10:55 PM DrFrost has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 170 (310606)
05-09-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by DrFrost
05-09-2006 8:00 PM


RE: Evolution Simplified
quote:
And while natural selection is a key component of evolution, it doesn't address some key issues that the larger theory attempts to.
For example: How did the first species come about?
The larger theory does not attempt to explain this.
-
quote:
In my estimation, that's a very important question and a very crucial part of the ToE.
You're estimation is half correct: it is an important question. But it is not a part of ToE at all, much less an important part.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by DrFrost, posted 05-09-2006 8:00 PM DrFrost has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by DrFrost, posted 05-10-2006 6:56 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2535 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 74 of 170 (310631)
05-09-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by DrFrost
05-09-2006 8:00 PM


RE: Evolution Simplified
as soon as earth could possibly support life as we know it, there it was! This raises a lot of very interesting questions
it either means that life gets started quite easily, or that someone stepped in. considering that right now we cannot prove (or disprove the second), and that abiogenesis is looking like a real answer, then perhaps life does get started easily.
Hmm, mayhaps we are not so unique after all.
Chirop has already pointed out the confusion you have over what ToE is. No need to beat that horse again.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 75 of 170 (310681)
05-10-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by kuresu
05-09-2006 10:55 PM


RE: Evolution Simplified
There is a thrid possiblity. The way we knew it could 'support' life was that life happened. It could be that it could have supported life earlier, but none happened at that time.

This message is a reply to:
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