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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 31 of 103 (457087)
02-21-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Granny Magda
02-21-2008 1:16 PM


Boring eh? Well I am sorry to report that the universe doesn't care whether you are b
I know the universe doesn't care how we live because, the universe doesn't have a mind. I never said the universe should excite me. It is tough shit if we live a shitty life here on Earth.
I have read the Big Bang Theory (Idea) and that's all it was, a theory (idea). I actually got a laugh out of it. Actually I won't be disappointed because, I believe that their is an answer to my why questions. The answer is God (you don't have to agree)

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 Message 20 by Granny Magda, posted 02-21-2008 1:16 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 02-21-2008 1:38 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 32 of 103 (457089)
02-21-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Rahvin
02-21-2008 1:33 PM


Re: No, we just find our peace and harmony in something other than a fairy tale. In m
That's what you believe.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 33 of 103 (457090)
02-21-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:33 PM


Re: Boring eh? Well I am sorry to report that the universe doesn't care whether you are b
ChristianJuggalo writes:
I have read the Big Bang Theory (Idea) and that's all it was, a theory (idea).
Oh, boy, here we go again...
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:33 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:43 PM Percy has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 34 of 103 (457093)
02-21-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
02-21-2008 1:38 PM


Oh, boy, here we go again...
You're right "percy", here we go again, an atheist trying to pass on "The Big Bang Theory" as fact.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 02-21-2008 1:38 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 1:47 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 43 by Granny Magda, posted 02-21-2008 2:09 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 35 of 103 (457095)
02-21-2008 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:43 PM


Re: Oh, boy, here we go again...
No, what Percy was referring to is another scientific illiterate who thinks that something being "just a theory" in any way means that it's of less value than say a "law" or a "fact."

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:43 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:54 PM subbie has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 36 of 103 (457097)
02-21-2008 1:50 PM


You know what?
Some people are going to beleive the universe was here without being created and no proof of how it got here.
Other people are going to believe it was created by God by relying on faith.
Either way, both sides are going to disagree.
Neither side has proof. All they have is faith and beliefs. Both sides think their right, and when it comes down to it in the end, we will find out who's right.
I'll pray for all non-believers of Christ and hope that you can just open your heart to him and know he loves you. Just give him a chance.
I know I will get bashed pretty hard for this, so go ahead.

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 1:59 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 42 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 2:07 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 37 of 103 (457099)
02-21-2008 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:08 PM


So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony? That's sad.
We want to live being honest with ourselves. We most certainly do beleive in promoting peace and harmony - no deity or faith is required for that. All that's required is to want peace and harmony for oneself, and empathize with others.
Atheism does not correlate to immorality. Remember, atheists believe this is the only life we have, and that there is no happy afterlife to look forward to. I'd much prefer if everyone in the world could live happy, prosperous, peaceful lives, because the idea of living the only life you get in a world of suffering, poverty, and ignorance is simply repugnant.
I may not say "well, at least they get to go to heaven," but my desire for peace and harmony for all human beings is at least as great as any Christian. And greater than some (Phelps comes to mind).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:08 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 38 of 103 (457100)
02-21-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by subbie
02-21-2008 1:47 PM


No, what Percy was referring to is another scientific illiterate who thinks that some
Well, the "Big Bang Theory" goes against therodynamics. And yes, I am illiterate when it comes to science. But, I know a theory doesn't stand up to laws or facts. And this one, breaks one of those laws (therodynamics) I don't know much about theordynamics but, I have seen information that says the "Big Bang" goes against it.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 1:47 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 2:00 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 2:02 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 2:10 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 103 (457101)
02-21-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:50 PM


Some people are going to beleive the universe was here without being created and no proof of how it got here.
Other people are going to believe it was created by God by relying on faith.
Either way, both sides are going to disagree.
What about the people who believe that god created the universe via the methods that science has proven to have occured?
Neither side has proof.
Well, science has evidence.
And we know that science kicks ass and is mostly right, otherwise we wouldn't be communicating over the internet with a computer.
Is your only problem with science that it contradicts what you would be more comfortable believing?
Are you really going to let your emotions get in the way of learning the truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:50 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 40 of 103 (457102)
02-21-2008 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:54 PM


Re: No, what Percy was referring to is another scientific illiterate who thinks that
You admit you are a scientific illiterate, yet you think you are qualified to declare that one of the most widely accepted "scientific theories" in the world is inconsistent with one of the most widely accepted "laws."
Which do you think is more likely: that your criticism is based on a faulty understanding of one or both, or people who have studied and worked with both for all of their professional lives got them wrong?
{ABE}
By the way, it's "thermodynamics." You'll have a little bit more credibility if you at least know what it's called.
Edited by subbie, : As stated

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:54 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:12 PM subbie has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 103 (457105)
02-21-2008 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:54 PM


Re: No, what Percy was referring to is another scientific illiterate who thinks that some
Well, the "Big Bang Theory" goes against therodynamics.
No it doesn't. That is false.
And yes, I am illiterate when it comes to science. But, I know a theory doesn't stand up to laws or facts.
Then why would cosmologists support it? They would be the first ones to know if there was a problem.
I have seen information that says the "Big Bang" goes against it.
That info was a lie.

And it pisses me off the Christian websites will knowingly lie to poeple in order to secure more believers. That's an unforgivable sin according to Jesus.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:54 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 42 of 103 (457107)
02-21-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:50 PM


You know what?
Some people are going to beleive the universe was here without being created and no proof of how it got here.
We have evidence that it is here. Speculation of how it got here without any evidence of anything else is just that - speculation. The assumption that it simply is is perfectly rational given that there is no evidence that it was "created."
Other people are going to believe it was created by God by relying on faith.
Clearly.
Either way, both sides are going to disagree.
Of course.
Neither side has proof. All they have is faith and beliefs. Both sides think their right, and when it comes down to it in the end, we will find out who's right.
No, one side believes only the evidence and is willing to say "I don't know" concerning the rest. The other side violates parsimony.
I'll pray for all non-believers of Christ and hope that you can just open your heart to him and know he loves you. Just give him a chance.
Please don't bother. I was a Christian for 25 years, and de-converted upon rational, critical analysis of my beliefs and reasons for having them. I now find being "prayed for" to be a little weird, and I certainly don't appreciate being preached to.
I know I will get bashed pretty hard for this, so go ahead.
Settle down. There's no need to callupon the Christian Martyr Complex. Just because you worship a martyr doesn't mean you have to pretend to be one.
We aren't attacking you, or your beliefs. We're having a discussion. I note, however, that you only seem to be responding to those posts with emotionally charge you, and have ignored those which are long and contain logical reasoning. Would you care to respond to some of those? It may keep us all from getting grumpy, and that only results in Admin getting angry. You wouldn't like Admin when he's angry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:50 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 43 of 103 (457108)
02-21-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:43 PM


Re: Oh, boy, here we go again...
You're right "percy", here we go again, an atheist trying to pass on "The Big Bang Theory" as fact.
I believe that what out host was driving at was the difference between the every-day definition of "theory" and the scientific definition, which is related in meaning, but nonetheless, quite different.
In everyday parlance, a theory is just an idea, a speculation, nothing more.
In science, a theory is an explanatory framework, a model which is capable of being tested through empirical observation. There is no difference in scientific usage between a "theory" and a "law", save that modern scientists tend to eschew the use of the term "law", as it is somewhat misleading.
A scientific theory is not a fact. Rather, it is an explanation of the facts, as they are observed, based on current evidence and understanding. Compare and contrast the following;
quote:
We are 12 billion light-years from
the edge,
That's a guess,
No one can ever say it's true,
But I know that I will always be
with you. - Katie Melua
quote:
We are 13.7 billion light-years from
the edge of the observable universe,
That's a good estimate with
well-defined error bars,
Scientists say it's true, but
acknowledge that it may be refined,
And with the available information, I predict that I will always be
with you - Simon Singh
The latter quote displays a slightly more scientific attitude. I hope this helps to clear up your apparent misunderstanding.
The Big bang theory is extremely well supported by evidence, reaching back to the first fraction of a second of our universe's existence. It is an extremely useful and successful theory and it has much support. I am in no way trying to "pass it off" as undeniable concrete fact, but rather as the best currently available explanation of what is observed.
As a side issue, I see no reason why, if I were to embrace Christianity at some point in the future, I would necessarily doubt the Big Bang as a result. The two beliefs are quite compatible.
Added by Edit: In message 36 you mention "bashing". Please believe me when I say that I have no intention of bashing anyone. I'm not trying to do you down, honestly. You may feel a little ganged-up on, with several people disagreeing with you, but that's life on a debate board I'm afraid. No-one is trying to bash you, we just disagree with you.
Edited by Granny Magda, : See above.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:43 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 44 of 103 (457109)
02-21-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
02-21-2008 1:59 PM


Well, science has evidence.
I don't have anything against true science. I just don't understand how people can say that the universe formed by itself and not have the proof.
I will not let my emotions get in the way of learning true science. I just don't believe that the universe could form all on it's own.
Think about it.
You cook food right? The food doesn't cook it self does it?
You build a house right? It doesn't build it self does it?

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 2:15 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 49 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 2:16 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 2:22 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 61 by Blue Jay, posted 02-21-2008 3:03 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 45 of 103 (457110)
02-21-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:54 PM


Re: No, what Percy was referring to is another scientific illiterate who thinks that
Well, the "Big Bang Theory" goes against therodynamics. And yes, I am illiterate when it comes to science. But, I know a theory doesn't stand up to laws or facts. And this one, breaks one of those laws (therodynamics) I don't know much about theordynamics but, I have seen information that says the "Big Bang" goes against it.
Perhaps you should try reading the laws of thermodynamics, and then explain in what way, specifically, you believe Big Bang cosmology to violate them?
Remember, though, that astrophysicists are the guys who use both thermodynamics and the Big Bang model in literally all of their work, and they don't see a contradiction.
"I remember reading it somewhere" is not an argument. And pleading ignorance means only that you aren't qualified to reach a conclusion until you do learn what the laws of thermodynamics say and what the Big bang model is.
We have several threads on both here, if you care to use the site's search.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:54 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
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