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Author | Topic: Are visions from God, or the Devil or indigestion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
techristian Member (Idle past 4130 days) Posts: 60 Joined: |
Quote from schrafinator
So, is the reason you believe someone is the conviction with which they believe what they are saying? I'll be there are at least 30 or 40 people who believe that they are Jesus, and they hold this belief passionately, with all theiir hearts. Yes , but if any of those 40 people ROSE FROM THE DEAD you would need to acknowledge some validity there. There are some things beyond our explanation and clearly beyond the realm of physics. It is very possible that I would have been dead more than 20 years ago if an angel didn't intervene on my behalf. I might add, that this was BEFORE I called myself a "born again christian". I will give the details of the experience in my next post, but I promise that it defies the law of physics. This was NOT a dream. It was real. Dan A growing LIST OF Musical Equipment to BUY or SELL
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greyline Inactive Member |
So, do you believe that gravity is caused by invisible fairies which push down on everything all the time? Now that IS cool and deeply fascinating! You've convinced me. I love it. Can anyone prove it wrong? Anyone? ------------------o--greyline--o
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, what I described is how sleep/dream research is done. Subjects get hooked up to an EEG monitor through electrodes stuck to their scalp, they go to sleep, and when REM waves show up on the monitor and they are woken up, they almost always report a dream. If you wake them up during stages of sleep where other kinds of brain waves are going on, they do not report dreams. It's really very consistent.
quote: Hmm, I am skeptical of this, sorry. Are these dreams really leading up to this unpredictable event, or did you dream the car crash because you heard the bookcase crash to the floor? The timeline is very important here, but it is difficult to be clear because you are in a semi-awake dreaming state where fantasy and reality can be blurred. Have you recorded the number of times this kind of thing has happened, and is it greater than chance would predict, or are you just remembering the times that it has happened and ignoring all the times that it hasn't?
quote: Might be. I don't know.
quote: I certainly agree that this is how the brain often works.
quote: Well, it is certainly quite easy to implant false memories in a large percentage of the population, and they can be wide awake.
quote: Nah, it's clear that people are almost always dreaming when they are in REM sleep, and the EEG can tell us when that is happening, and we can confirm it by waking people up and asking them if they were dreaming.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: Yes, I would, but that is physical evidence, isn't it? Without such physical evidence, all we have is your assurances that you have received "massa", just as all we have are a bunch of people who assure me that they are Jesus.
quote: Really? Like what?
quote: Can't wait.
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David unfamous Inactive Member |
I'm waiting too. I'm also wondering whether the event defied the laws of physics because of the presence of angels, or whether the apparent defience could only be due to angels? In either case, I'll wager that angels were not actually witnessed, or they are included to make the story worthy of recital.
Excuse my skepticism, but I've heard many anecdotes involving demons and angels etc. In all cases the anomalies were nothing more than a religiously bias hypothesis to an extraordinary event (or non-event more often than not).
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7605 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote:Yes I agree entirely. I am just not sure how one would infer that the dream reported by the user had extensibility in time, rather than being a memory on the moment of waking, as a result of brain non-experiental brain activity during the REM sleep. quote:"Frequently" may have given you the wrong impression - I mean a couple of times a month, more or less. However, the present a possible, highly tentative, conjectural [insert hedging qualification of choice here] falsification of the time-extension of dreams during REM sleep. quote:But you can't ask them if they are dreaming during REM sleep. As I say, how would you distinguish between a dream occuring during REM sleep and a dream "composed" on waking from REM activity? It's an interesting question, though, don't you think?
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Mike Holland Member (Idle past 511 days) Posts: 179 From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia Joined: |
Hello Mr Pamboli,
This reminds me of some neurological experiments that I read about a few years ago. Sorry I cannot give any references, but the drift was that we start responding to a stimulus, and then invent the reason for our response, but we remain 'convinced' that our response followed and was a consequence of the reason. Makes one think that the only reason for consciousness is to invent 'after the fact' justifications for our actions - depressing thought. Mike.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7605 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
Thanks Mike - that sounds really interesting. I'll try to track it down.
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
I remember seeing that experiment in a documentary in the UK. The abstract to the article is here, though I don't have a subscription to see the full text.
Humans have the conscious experience of 'free will': we feel we can generate our actions, and thus affect our environment. Here we used the perceived time of intentional actions and of their sensory consequences as a means to study consciousness of action. These perceived times were attracted together in conscious awareness, so that subjects perceived voluntary movements as occurring later and their sensory consequences as occurring earlier than they actually did. Comparable involuntary movements caused by magnetic brain stimulation reversed this attraction effect. We conclude that the CNS applies a specific neural mechanism to produce intentional binding of actions and their effects in conscious awareness. PE
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techristian Member (Idle past 4130 days) Posts: 60 Joined: |
I have started a new thread on my "angel" experience because this thread is about dreaming. It is called "Is this an angel or not?"
Dan"This website features FREE drum videos and lessons" |
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NeoPagan Inactive Member |
There are definitely psychics among us (even in the church, although the terminology for them is different). As a matter of fact, we all have psychic ability. People outside the church who are called psychics (actually, most of them refer to themselves as "Intuitives" or "Empaths") are simply people who have been more encouraged to develop and practice their ability. Of course, there are some (like Evangelists) who use it for profit and gain--nobody is perfect. There is no such thing as a good or an evil "psychic" or a good or evil "prophet." There is simply "accurate" or "inaccurate." Basically, it depends on ones ability to get himself out of the way and allow the information to come through with no "twists" or "Spins" from his own personality. In Metaphysics, we refer to a person like that as a "Clear channel." The clearer the person is, the more accurate the informaton. Many people in Metaphysics (and many Eastern religions) believe that there is no such thing as "time" as we perceive it--all events are actually taking place simultaneously, so that past, present, and future are all one. This is how the psychic is able to "see." One cannot actually see something if it hasn't taken place. You can almost picture all events placed on a vertical line--situated in different places but all occurring at the same time. The person with more developed psychic ability is simply able to move back and forth along that line and view events in a way that others cannot. It's really nothing "mysterious."
In the Metaphysic world, we believe that a person is actually "astral-projecting" or leaving their body during the dream state. In fact, we believe that is the entire purpose of having to sleep. We are not actually our bodies--we are spirit beings, and those spirits can only endure being cooped up in bodies for so many hours at a time. When we begin to feel tired and exhausted, it is an indicated that the spirit has been "housed" for too long and needs to get out. We also believe that there are many planes of "existence" and many "realities" occurring similtaneously, and during the dream time, the spirit is able to visit some of these other planes & realities--sometimes what we would refer to as "past life" experiences, (although there is actually no such thing as past, present, or future). This is why we might see ourselves in events that to our knowledge have never taken place. In some other reality, these things may very well be taking place.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7605 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
Excellent, thanks. Intentional binding seems to be acquiring a canonical meaning in neurosychology these days. It's a very interesting area for philosophers of mind.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: And you know this how?
quote: Really? How do you know this?
quote: They might also be called "cold readers", or "frauds", depending.
quote: More common is the non-religious huckster or self-deluded self-promoter, such as Sylvia Browne, VonPraugh, and Jon Edwards.
quote: Skilled cold readers, regardless if they are knowingly pretending to have mystical abilities or if they are self-deluded, can be amazingly accurate. However, when they are not led by people, given information to help them, and basically made to perform under normal experimental protocols, they fail. Not just some of them; ALL of them fail or perform no better than chance would predict.
quote: In the Metaphysic world, we believe that a person is actually "astral-projecting" or leaving their body during the dream state. In fact, we believe that is the entire purpose of having to sleep. We are not actually our bodies--we are spirit beings, and those spirits can only endure being cooped up in bodies for so many hours at a time. When we begin to feel tired and exhausted, it is an indicated that the spirit has been "housed" for too long and needs to get out. We also believe that there are many planes of "existence" and many "realities" occurring similtaneously, and during the dream time, the spirit is able to visit some of these other planes & realities--sometimes what we would refer to as "past life" experiences, (although there is actually no such thing as past, present, or future). This is why we might see ourselves in events that to our knowledge have never taken place. In some other reality, these things may very well be taking place.[QUOTE]
Sorry, this is nice and all, but is not any kind of explanation. It's really just a story.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1507 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I'm not sure that some of your comments cannot
be reflected back. I am sure that not ALL who claim to be psychic have undergonelaboratory assessments, so the best that can be said (dispasionately) is that such individuals do something which we do not entirely understand at present. Have you, for instance, heard of remote viewing ... severalgovernment agencies have active programmes in these areas (allegedly). [This message has been edited by Peter, 04-09-2003]
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Jesuslover153 Inactive Member |
all this talk of psychics makes me think of that book...
psychic?? behind the iron curtain... I can not recall the actual title... but it goes into the government experiments in Russia back in the 40s... very interesting stuff, I wonder if one could track down some of the peoples mentioned in that book.. more speciafically the doctor whom wrote about the impossibilty of telepathy and than became a strict believer after having met a self-made telepath, which resulted in this doctor writing to the government giving the importance of further study (having been in war times and rumors were affloat of the Americans using telepathy to communicate with submarine personal)... hahaha... this is all rather interesting
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