Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Pre-flood physics?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 1 of 79 (74065)
12-18-2003 9:53 AM


According to the Genesis story, after the flood God placed the first rainbow in the sky as a sign of a new covenant that he would never flood the earth again.
Now, one can reasonable conclude therefore that there were no rainbows until after the flood. How can this be?
Could it have never rained? No, it rained during the flood.
So we are left with just two possibilities - that light didn't refract before the end of the flood, or that water didn't refract, reflect or otherwise was altered so as not to produce a rainbow. Either way it requires a pretty radical alteration of the laws of physics.
So then, literalists, what is your explanation? Is there another way? Or did life somehow go on just the same in this wildly different world?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Abshalom, posted 12-18-2003 10:20 AM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 12-18-2003 11:17 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 79 (74074)
12-18-2003 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
12-18-2003 9:53 AM


Are There Rainbows On Venus?
Oh boy, Mr. Jack, you're opening a good one here! You probably already know that some creationists believe that from Creation to the Deluge there was total and perennially dense cloud cover kinda like greenhouse gasses through which the sun couldn't penetrate sufficiently to refract a rainbow. Of course then we need an explanation of why most aboriginals of 4000 to 3000 BCE were obviously dark-skinned. Jack, are you sure you wanna open this can of worms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Jack, posted 12-18-2003 9:53 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 79 (74093)
12-18-2003 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
12-18-2003 9:53 AM


There couldn't be rainbows before God made them could there?
This was the first rainbow, there had to be a significant new 'sign' of another one of God's changes of heart. He created a rainbow as a sign, there couldnt be any rainbow's before this.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Jack, posted 12-18-2003 9:53 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Abshalom, posted 12-18-2003 11:40 AM Brian has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 79 (74097)
12-18-2003 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
12-18-2003 11:17 AM


Poor Methuzhella
That's right, Brian. No rainbows before the creation thereof by God. No way, no how. The rainbow was created from the prime elements of fire, air, and water, earth (dust around which water adhered),and then placed fully extended and stacked layer by layer across the expanse of the Dome in invisible form to refract the Light that was made to become visible through the previously unpenetrated, dense Waters Above the Earth specifically as a sign of the New Covenant for the post-Deluge New Earth. And poor Methuzhella, lived longer than any other human, a whole thousand years this man lived, and never ever saw a rainbow.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-18-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 12-18-2003 11:17 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 12-18-2003 12:50 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 79 (74107)
12-18-2003 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Abshalom
12-18-2003 11:40 AM


Re: Poor Methuzhella
He never ever saw Audrey Hepburn either.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Abshalom, posted 12-18-2003 11:40 AM Abshalom has not replied

  
some_guy
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 79 (74383)
12-19-2003 11:01 PM


where does it say it was the first rainbow ever?

  
uranium_235
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 79 (74442)
12-20-2003 2:09 PM


"after the flood God placed the first rainbow in the sky"
[This message has been edited by uranium_235, 12-20-2003]
[This message has been edited by uranium_235, 12-20-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Asgara, posted 12-20-2003 2:16 PM uranium_235 has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 8 of 79 (74443)
12-20-2003 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by uranium_235
12-20-2003 2:09 PM


Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
Just where does it say:
after the flood God placed the first rainbow in the sky
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by uranium_235, posted 12-20-2003 2:09 PM uranium_235 has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 79 (74451)
12-20-2003 3:52 PM


1. Since lifespan decreased steadily and quickly after the flood the literalist concludes that physics of the world and atmosphere had to be radically changed with the flood.
2. The rainbow was produced by God, but it was the atmosphere he changed to do it, not that he couldn't have done it anyhow, but it was a result of the postflood atmospheric conditions that it cam about. Thus it is a natural phenomenon which could not have occured under preflood contitions.
3. It had to be a brand new event after the flood. Otherwise God would not have used it as a sign/promise of no more global floods.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by NosyNed, posted 12-20-2003 4:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 77 by Dr Jack, posted 01-05-2004 5:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 10 of 79 (74452)
12-20-2003 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
12-20-2003 3:52 PM


Different? How?
Physics of the world changed only 4,500 years ago? How?
What changed? How can such a change be concluded from an unsubstantiated change in average or maximum lifespan?
------------------
Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2003 3:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 11 of 79 (74507)
12-21-2003 12:51 AM


Like you all probably heard about hunza water, coming from a glacier formed in the biblical deluge and the people drinking this water living longer, the glaciers were formed suddenly, in the 40 day deluge from the windows of heaven (water canopy, freezing suddenly (hunza water?) and the fountains of the deep releasing sediments and salty water from deep inside the earth(forming the 47,000 miles of the mid-ocean ridges)techtonic plate movement being responsible for all the fractured rock and water being found in the deepest wells (even seven miles deep, fractured rock and water), the kola well, and the german well. Even the oceans of water bearing evidence of Psalm 104:9, that God prepared a place for the waters of the flood, causing the oceans to settle and the mountains to rise. But what I found interesting is the hydrogen ions believed to be responsible for the electical potential of the hunza water, makes one wonder if dust was a problem pre-flood, like its the dust in the center of each rain drop that makes it possible for rain, leaning me to feel that the electrical potentials (whatever that means) was different pre-flood. Like we now have an ionoshpere, but the bible seems to infer water above and water below(pre-flood) kjv genesis 1:7.

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Rrhain, posted 12-21-2003 5:19 AM johnfolton has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 12 of 79 (74523)
12-21-2003 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by johnfolton
12-21-2003 12:51 AM


whatever writes:
quote:
Like you all probably heard about hunza water, coming from a glacier formed in the biblical deluge
There was no "biblical deluge."
Not only is there no physical evidence of a global flood, the mere concept is physically impossible.
There is only so much water on the earth...on the order of 10^8 cubic miles. However, to cover the earth with enough water to submerge Mt. Everest requires an additional 10^9 cubic miles.
Notice the dual problem: We need not only an order of magnitude more water than the earth currently has, we need it in addition to the water that is already here. You see, over 97% of the earth's water is in the ocean. That's what allows us to have dry land in the first place. If you were to take the water out of the ocean and put it on the dry land, it would immediately rush back to the oceans leaving dry land again.
You can demonstrate this for yourself with a simple experiment. Take a baking dish or pie plate. Say it happens to have a depth of 3 inches. Now find an object that is taller than that...say, a trophy that is 12 inches tall. Put the trophy in the dish and then fill the dish to the brim with water. Some of the trophy will be submerged, but some of it will stick out above the water.
Now, using only the water that is in the dish, try to completely submerge the trophy without knocking it over such that the trophy remains submerged when you stop doing whatever it is you're doing to cover it up.
You won't be able to do so. Whatever water you pour on the trophy will immediately run off and go back into the baking dish. Remember, you can only use the water in the dish...no additional water and no outside physical contraptions to corral the water.
There is no "water canopy." If all the water in the atmosphere we currently have were to condense and fall as rain, it would only cover the earth to an inch (and then immediately start evaporating back into the atmosphere). If you were to try to suspend 10^9 cubic miles of water in the atmosphere as water vapor, the pressure and temperature would have to be so high that all life would be cooked. Nothing could survive.
Since there was no global flood and since it is impossible for there to have been one, any speculation about what life was like "before the flood" is nothing but fantasy.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by johnfolton, posted 12-21-2003 12:51 AM johnfolton has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 13 of 79 (74546)
12-21-2003 9:26 AM


There is the hydroplate theory(Walt Brown), that correctly explains the formation of the basalt mountain range that is over 45,000 miles in length in the ocean, the bible talks of the fountains of the deep opening up and being fractured, all the scientific evidence in the natural of water over 7 miles deep into the earth, and that this rock is fractured supports not the techtonic plate theory but the hydroplate theory, as the water erupted out of the fountains of the deep, for them 40 days, the canopy of water in the atmosphere also contributed water, however, like the naturalists Rachel Carson finding the sunken islands in the pacific ocean that too her seemed to have sunken, over 1/2 mile supports psalm 104, that God caused the ocean basins to settle, if the earth was smoother there is more than enough water in the oceans to turn and cover the earth, however, when the mid-ocean ridges were formed the topography of the earth was changed and even today the mountains are rising a bit, due to the tidal effects of the moon, due to the fractured nature of the fountains of the deep pressing under the trenches and all the basalt lava that covered the ocean floor, making it appear that the trenches are subducting when its actually believed to be the granite rocks that fractured under the basalt rock that converted into sedimentary rock due to the tremendous heat, that pressed up the plateaus the mountains of the continents when God created the bounds that the waters would not again cover the earth. kjv psalm 104:9.
P.S. The bible itself agrees with you that the waters of the ocean have been bound, or presently due to the topography after the flood, its impossible for the oceans to cover the earth, etc...

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by edge, posted 12-21-2003 10:32 AM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 15 by Coragyps, posted 12-21-2003 10:41 AM johnfolton has replied
 Message 16 by Coragyps, posted 12-21-2003 10:57 AM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 18 by roxrkool, posted 12-21-2003 1:46 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 12-22-2003 12:41 AM johnfolton has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 14 of 79 (74547)
12-21-2003 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by johnfolton
12-21-2003 9:26 AM


Comment and Question
Comment: one word - 'puncutation'.
Question: do you understand what you have just posted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by johnfolton, posted 12-21-2003 9:26 AM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by NosyNed, posted 12-21-2003 11:08 AM edge has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 15 of 79 (74548)
12-21-2003 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by johnfolton
12-21-2003 9:26 AM


Yes, punctuation. Please.
the bible talks of the fountains of the deep opening up and being fractured, all the scientific evidence in the natural of water over 7 miles deep into the earth,
Do you have any idea whatever, whatever, how hot water is that is seven miles down in Earth's rocks? Or any inkling of how amazingly absurd Walt Brown's "theory" is? That the "fountains of the deep" launched all the asteroids, but failed completely to boil Noah and his Big Boat? C'mon.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by johnfolton, posted 12-21-2003 9:26 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by johnfolton, posted 12-22-2003 9:48 AM Coragyps has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024