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Author | Topic: Agriculture and cultural ecology | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Really, I have to agree. This is a very hard topic to settle. There are, in fact, several other theories than the two being discussed here. All I can say is why I like the one, why I don't like the others, and why certain objections are not valid. Just for clarity, I mentioned earlier that I initially got this idea from a professor named Glassman, and that it wasn't his idea. The idea appears to be original to Konrad Fialkowski, a brain researcher in Vienna according to one of the few references to him I can find on the web. Marvin Harris mentions and defends the theory in his book, Our Kind.
quote: Temperatures need to get to about 106 or 107 fahrenheit inside the body. It doesn't need to be that hot outside. Once the body's cooling systems are overloaded the body's own metabolism will push temperatures up very quickly. Overloading the cooling system would be very easy under the conditions described. Once this happens, and the victim survives, that person is prone to such conditions. Treatment of lesser heat related problems would be difficult under those same conditions, thus increasing the likelihood that those conditions would progress. In other words, these temperatures are easily reached under the conditions of persistence hunting-- long term exercise in the sun at the equator. In fact, these conditions are much greater than that required to induce heat stroke. Secondly, cells don't have to die to be negatively effected by heat. The body's responses to heat rob the brain of blood supply and create other chemical imbalances due to loss of fluids and salts. This alone is enough to produce a selection for redundant structures. Ten cells working at 75% efficiency is better than 7 cells working at 75%.
quote: It isn't really resistance to heat per se but the ability to continue to function in the heat that is important. The brain could resist the heat by shutting down all but minimal functions as soon as overheating becomes likely. The individual effected would lapse into a coma, slowing metabolism, etc. But such leaves the person extremely vulnerable to predation and it also means that person would not be able to hunt or gather during the day and this significantly reduces one's chances of eating as opposed to being eaten. So, the only option seems to be to keep the brain functioning under harsh circumstances.
quote: It doesn't matter that more brain cells produce more heat, so long as the benefits outway the drawbacks. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Hmm... this really seems like a 'why ask why?' kinda response, Ned. I guess we don't really need to know why, but some of us are a bit compulsive about it. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is a non-answer. You don't have statistics for people living 1.5 mya. Secondly, heat related illness SHOULD be less today than for our distant relatives because we have been through a period wherein we adapted to high heat environments. In other words, any modern observations of heat related disease should be increased when applied to those people just moving out of the forest and onto the savannah.
quote: Death isn't the problem. The problem is functioning under harsh conditions while not dying. Its the ones that survive which matter.
quote: And if I don't die?
quote: Slippery slope fallacy. The problem should be obvious.
quote: What you can or cannot do is not relevant. For one, you are already better adapted than they would have been. Your recent evolutionary history includes a million plus years of adaptation to hot environments. This is true whether you believe that the brain is part of that adaptation or not. Secondly, our ancestors would not be running around chasing game while chugging Pedialyte. What source of 'adequate salt' is it to which you refer? Again, what you can do isn't relevant. Our ancestors would have had to walk to a water supply, not stop and take a drink from a sports bottle. Of course, diverting to a water supply would allow the prey to escape. Third, our ancestors would not have been ingesting a lot of alcohol either, so this too is irrelevant.
quote: And ten cells working at 75% is better than 7 cells working at 75%. Its interesting that I explained this in my previous post to you, but you ignored that response.
Exactly... which is why redundancy is a good thing. Having a partially functioning brain while your cells heal would be very bad. quote: Well that's the question isn't it? I think there is such evidence. Simple denial isn't adequate, and you've presented no substantial objections.
quote: How in the hell is that a response to this:
And none of them outside our line have developed a big brain, as would be expected if it were as critical to hunting and foraging as you pretend. We share most of our physical characteristics with the other primates. None of them have developed a brain like ours, yet they get along just fine without it. This suggests that it isn't needed for hunting and gathering. There has to be something else. quote: Precisely.
quote: But memory isn't it, nor is social structure. Many animals have phenomenal memories for resources, and many animals live in groups. There is nothing about these conditions which would push an animal with a more average brain/body ratio toward developing a large brain. These two conditions are so common that if they were the key we'd see similar results/consequences in other animals. There is nothing in these two condition adequate to shifting brain size from being detrimental to beneficial.
quote: Yes, australopithicenes had just larger brains than chimps. The connection of A. robustus with oldowan tool kits is weak. The general consensus is that oldowan tools were first used by H. habilis.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=399289 The Oldowan Stone Tool Industry Oldowan tools show up with the first appearance of H. habilis, though the australopithecines were still around. These later could have been using the oldowan tools as well, but it would be later australopithecines, at any rate, and not the earlier, so it doesn't make much difference.
quote: Yet you presented tool use as a reason for the growth of the brain.
Most animals have built in adaptations for hunting; humans have to rely on tools.
EvC Forum: Agriculture and cultural ecology quote: It appears, then, that you agree that tool use isn't the key.
quote: Wait... what? We actually see just the opposite. Tool complexity increased marginally, while brain size increased rapidly.
quote: I'm glad you get the point.
quote: What are you getting on about now?
quote: The early australopithicenes-- about 4.4 mya-- had more ape like feet than we have. They were more curved than our own, being still somewhat adapted to climbing. The case against persistence hunting would not be that the feet were too flat but too grasping and not well adapted to bipedalism. By about 3.6 mya at least one group had very human feet, though many question whether A. afarensis was fully bipedal. Of course, this is exactly what one would expect for an animal moving into the grasslands and starting to exploit a niche in that environment by taking advantage of its abilities to walk upright.
quote: What does it matter? Its just a name. Calling it something different doesn't change its morphology or where it appears in the fossil record.
quote: Gee, thanks! Anyone whose taken High School biology knows that. Trying to score points by introducing a flashy bit of jargon, perhaps?
quote: What is the point? I am not arguing for Falk's theory. I mentioned it as an alternate theory, and it has some components I like. That is all.
quote: Ah... so in other words, you have no evidence for the claim that women had a seperate tool kit. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
I really think you should try to get into grad school and try this out.
It is obvious that you know nothing about the brain or its structure and function. If you did know how it worked; you would understand why your model is so incredibly flawed. There is nothing like the human brain in nature. In order to understand its function and how it got to where it is today, we are stuck with a reverse engineering that uses diseases and strokes to find out what happens when a portion of the brain no longer functions. Thus the reference to TREDs. It is tiresome to point out the obvious to you all the time. Best of luck John, because you will need a lot of it to get by in life. As it is, you are not going to far by relying on your wits at all. ------------------Bringer of fire, trickster, teacher. [This message has been edited by Speel-yi, 10-11-2003]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Of course, you are at grad school level, yes? Not likely. You facts are too scrambled and your logical fallacies too numerous. I've spent half my time pointing them out to you.
quote: More appeals to vaporous credentials.
quote: I don't care what you think is obvious. You haven't presented anything close to evidence. Most of the time your comments haven't even been relevant. And yes, it tiresome to point these flaws out to you.
quote: Keep the patronizing crap, Spiel. You've screwed up even the basic facts, like which ancestors used oldowan tool and what their feet looked like. You've brushed over corrections of your own errors. Half your comments have been irrelevant. Your posts are low on information and big on 'cause Spiel says' and very big on fallacious reasoning. So honestly, your best wishes feel more like a curse than a blessing. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
Try spelling the name right and you might improve your credibility.
I also like how you start off some salvo a while back with a claim about having taken courses from "a real live anthropologist" or use web sites as research, then whine when somebody cites their own education as actually having done some research in the first place. Doing a quick web search and then citing that as research is a sure sign that you are a dillitante. You have avoided any presentation of your Brain Cell Replacement Hypothsis at a higher level because it doesn't work.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2324 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Let's play nice boys.
guideline 3 from the forum rules. 3. Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. The Britannica says, "Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach." I'm going to close this topic down for a short cooling off period. Maybe when it opens back up you can discuss without resorting to bashing your opponent. ------------------
AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2324 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Shall we try this again? If not let me know.
Remember...lets discuss the varying opinions and theories...not the personality of your opponent. ------------------
AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe
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John Inactive Member |
quote: ... but not my honesty. How do I increase my credibility by decreasing my sincerity?
quote: Sarcasm in response to some grade school definitions you posted.
quote: Have you noticed that you are on a web forum? It is a bit hard to refer to much that isn't online.
quote: Well, spiel, if you are going to cite yourself as a source, you have to cite yourself. This, you have refused to do. You can claim to be anything you like. It is as meaningless to me as it would be to you if I claimed to be an expert in a dozen fields. I, of course, haven't claimed to be an expert and haven't asked you to take my word for anything. You, however, are claiming some authority while refusing to back it up. Its laughable.
quote: That would be 'dilettante.'
Definitions of dilettante - OneLook Dictionary Search I read through this thread again and it looks as though I am the one doing any research at all. That is a wee bit better than making things up. You haven't written anything that can't be had in two freshman courses-- Intro. to Anth. and Intro to Biology, and you've gotten even uncontroversial parts of that blatantly wrong. And, obviously, you missed Intro. to Logic. You are bluffing.
quote: Not my idea. Why can't you comprehend that? It doesn't do you any good to miss the simple things like this, especially when you've been given the names of the people who originated the idea and even the name of the man who introduced me to it.
quote: You've had the whole thread to bring in this higher level. All I've seen is amateurish garbage like this worse-than-high-school sentence in your three line reply to my thirty line post.
There would be no need to have spare cells hanging around and metabolizing food you could put to good use like pumping blood around. Or maybe we should return to the post where you simulate persistence hunting at the equator by going to the sauna? Maybe we should talk about those flat australopithecine feet?
But as implied earlier, some curvature in the foot bones, indicated that early humans had retained some climbing abilities this may have implied a transition between primitive and modern features in an evolving foot towards bipedalism.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.micro.utexas.edu/courses/mcmurry/spring98/13/moya.html I'm working at your level, and I've had enough of it. Unless someone else shows some interest, I've no reason to continue. Asgara can kill the thread. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com Works for me John, thanks. Closing the thread. If anyone is still interested in the thread they can contact me or Moose to reopen it - AdminAsgara [This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 10-13-2003]
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