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Author Topic:   Randomness and God
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 32 (80796)
01-26-2004 2:54 AM


How do Random events factor in to a God controled universe?
Whenever I roll a pair of dice, are those numbers really random? After all, dosn't God know what those numbers are gonna be?
According to some God is the glue that keeps everything in the universe glued together. So when I throw a deck of cards in the air god must be guiding each individual card into the position he forsaw aons ago.
Am I right here?
I mean, dosn't true Randomness contradict god? If things can happen with no predictable outcome, it means that god himself cant predict it. So God must contradict randomness.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Syamsu, posted 01-26-2004 11:58 AM Yaro has replied
 Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-12-2004 11:44 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 02-13-2004 8:35 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 25 by 1.61803, posted 03-03-2004 2:22 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 2 of 32 (80854)
01-26-2004 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
01-26-2004 2:54 AM


As far as I know, the roll of a pair of dice is determined at the start of the roll. If the startingpoint was a little different, then the result would also be different. That the distrubtion of the results according to the startingpoint is uh... chaotic, is covered by chaos theory.
But this is still just the principle of cause (startingpoint roll) and effect (what side turns up). Cause and effect is how the past relates to the present, there is no room for randomness in that principle.
Another principle is chance and outcome, which is how the future relates to the present. How any particular side turning up, relates to the start of the roll, which is 1/36 for each pair of sides. I'm not really sure if randomness is part of that either, I'm beginning to think it's not part of the principle actually.
Anyway when there are several possible outcomes and one of them get's to be realised, then a determination has occurred on the possible outcomes. Determination is simply another word for choice, and this is what randomness is. There is no noticeable difference between the randomness in the brain as related to human choice, and the randomness in nature generally, altough there might be such difference, and it's assumed there is a difference. So then how would either choice or natural randomness violate the existence of God? Since we haven't the faintest idea how either randomness, or human choice works fundamentally, it's anybody's guess if God did or didn't have anything to do with choice or the randomness, but in common theology God has lots to do with choices of course. Randomness doesn't contradict the existence of God, it just contradicts that everything in the universe was predetermined from the startingpoint of the universe.
Or to exclude God you might argue that a thing that goes from a state of several possibilities into a state of one outcome is the sole owner of the determination on those possibilities. A person who chooses is the owner of that decision, and God can't have anything to do with a person making a decision. Similarly a rock falling to the ground might fall this way or that, and the determination which way it falls is owned solely by the rock, or the ground, or both.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:54 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:15 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 3 of 32 (80859)
01-26-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Syamsu
01-26-2004 11:58 AM


WOW! Great post!
I never thought of that. Very well put. thanx Syamsu.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Syamsu, posted 01-26-2004 11:58 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 4 of 32 (85959)
02-12-2004 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
01-26-2004 2:54 AM


Hello Yaro :
Good topic, good questions.
The random factor is the existence of free will.
God doesn't know for certain what you are going to do until you actually do it. But this doesn't mean He isn't ready to react - He is.
There are only so many options and God knows all of them. God is always prepared to react regardless of what a person actually does.
God has set the boundaries, but He does not know what a person will do within those boundaries until they actually do what they do.
This means there is an exception to His omniscience, and as much as this violates traditional creed about God it is nontheless true.
Want proof ?
Genesis 22:12 has God saying to Abraham " now I know ".
Abraham was at least 120 years old in this passage and in this context God told Abraham that He finally decided that he feared Him.
Until this moment God did not know IF Abraham feared Him. It means what it says and says what it means. What do you think ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:54 AM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Primordial Egg, posted 02-13-2004 12:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 6 by mike the wiz, posted 02-13-2004 5:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 32 (86102)
02-13-2004 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object
02-12-2004 11:44 PM


Out of time?
WT,
Just trying to understand your viewpoint here, as its unusual in my experience for a theist to claim that God is not omniscient.
God doesn't know for certain what you are going to do until you actually do it. But this doesn't mean He isn't ready to react - He is.
Does this imply that you believe God exists within time?
After all, if God existed "outside of time and space" then he'd be able to see past, present and future in one sitting, so he would always know what we were about to do.
Just curious.
PE

Mrs Hardy: "And how is Mrs Laurel?"
Stanley: "Oh, fine thank you."
Mrs Hardy: "I'd love to meet her some time."
Stanley: "Neither do I, too."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-12-2004 11:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-15-2004 6:58 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 32 (86160)
02-13-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object
02-12-2004 11:44 PM


God doesn't know for certain what you are going to do until you actually do it. But this doesn't mean He isn't ready to react - He is.
Maybe he does know what you are going to do despite you having the choice. Yes, the results might be random but God nevertheless probably knows every outcome - like you say, but I reckon he also knows what the outcome will be - despite free will.
Take a coin, flip it, whatever you get decide if you want to make that choice your official flip then change your mind a squadrillion times, and God will know the outcome before your final decision despite all of your in-decisive flip choices. He does not require " no free will " because he knows the outcome. It is not connected.
Free will = God doesn't know - Incorrect.
Free will = God can still know because free will is not related to him knowing the outcome - Correct.
Remember, he knows every outcome so no matter how random it appears, He is God, he still knows what the actual outcome will be regardless of randomness. (I could be wrong ofcourse )
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-13-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 32 (86165)
02-13-2004 5:49 PM


God walks into the bar.
God asks Bob, " What's your poison? "
Then God says - " By the way Bob, I know what you want to drink "
God thinks secretly that Bob will want a Martini - shaken not stirred.
Bob says, " No you don't know, I'm going to change my mind so you cannot possibly know. "
Bob continues " I want a vodka and orange on the house "
God says " Fine - but I still know the outcome ".
Bob retorts, " Ha - that's where you are wrong, I actually want a martini - shaken not stirred "
God replies " Fine, a martini it is. "
God still knows the outcome despite freewill.

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 32 (86186)
02-13-2004 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
01-26-2004 2:54 AM


AKLSDJFL;KAJXCVOPAWUI
AJSFJLKXJCVPAOWERGFJ XCNVSDFJN AOPWFASJVZXVJN=4TIJD;DFAERTUR-S0Z9URTN'VPAWG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:54 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 32 (86495)
02-15-2004 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Primordial Egg
02-13-2004 12:44 PM


Re: Out of time?
P.E. :
Yes it is unusual for a theist to claim that God IS NOT omniscient, however, let me say from the outset that God IS omniscient with ONE exception.
I base my belief that there is an exception to His omniscience from the source of the Bible. This source was authored by God, so in reality, God is revealing that His omniscience has an exception.
You ask if I believe God exists within time ?
The Bible declares God resides and has His being outside of time - that He is eternal.
God views time like a parade.
He sees the entire event of the parade all at the same time.
The only thing He does not know is if a person will choose to use their free will to trust Him or not.
Scripture records the Person of God to be synonymous with brilliant light. Einstein and others theorize that if a person travelled at the speed of light time would cease to exist. Maybe God "exists" at the speed of light.
You are correct when you say that if He exists outside of time and space that this enables Him to see past, present, and future, so He would always know what we are about to do.
God can predict what we might do, and He can predict with absolute certainty when we are not considering to trust Him or not.
The only exception to God's omniscience is that He does not know for certain what a person will do in the area of "to trust" or "not to trust"
If trust is a synonym for love, fear, obedience, (and it is) then this explains why He told Abraham "NOW I KNOW" thou fearest Me. God said "now I know" because until that particular moment He did not know if Abraham feared/trusted/loved Him. (Genesis 22:12)
Free will is so free in the area of faith in God that it is the one thing God prizes above everything else. Choosing to trust God by faith is the reason for being of mankind, because faith is the one thing God cannot create (exception to His omnipotence).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Primordial Egg, posted 02-13-2004 12:44 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Primordial Egg, posted 02-15-2004 7:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 32 (86510)
02-15-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
02-15-2004 6:58 PM


Re: Out of time?
Thanks for the clarification WT. I think I understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't quite add up to me....
Here's my understanding of your view:
God IS ominscient in all of the ways commonly attributed to Him EXCEPT for matters relating to an individual's "trust" (to include fear, love, obedience) in Him (evidenced by what he said to Abraham). And only then when the individual concerned has already jumped the hurdle of considering whether or not to trust Him.
Have I got this right?
If I have (and I've read your post through a few times now just to make sure), then it seems to me that you could manufacture any number of major events which leverage off of God's inability to know your feelings towards him.
Thought experiment: Put someone who's considering to be a Christian (she's teetering on the cusp of the verge, but it still could go either way) in a room with a Bible. In the room with her are two buttons she can press, a red one and a blue one. She is told that, after having read the Bible if she decides to become a fully fledged Christian she should press the red button. Otherwise, she presses the blue button.
Now if I've understood you correctly, God has no way of knowing which button she will choose. She's certainly considering to trust God, its just that she, like Abraham, is choosing to exercise her freewill in a manner for which God cannot work out the details. So we've used the hole in God's omniscience to produce a real physical phenomenon.
Now the buttons could do anything you want them to. It might take some effort to get the funding, but the blue button, for instance, could be used to initiate a global nuclear holocaust which God would not have known about .Yet at the same time God exists outside of time, so its inconceivable that he would not see a global nuclear holocaust, right?
Do you see what I'm getting at here? As soon as you start to introduce a limitation upon on God, you can then use that limitation to curtail God's powers to an unimaginably large extent (a bit like how deconstruction works). The whole omniscience thing then starts to unravel.
The wider picture is that if God sees all of time like a parade, except for 'blind spots' where someone is making an honest trust decision about Him, it follows that he also can't see the consequences of those trust decisions, else He would be able to work out what the decision was. So it wouldn't be a blind spot to Him any more.
How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?
PE

Mrs Hardy: "And how is Mrs Laurel?"
Stanley: "Oh, fine thank you."
Mrs Hardy: "I'd love to meet her some time."
Stanley: "Neither do I, too."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-15-2004 6:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-17-2004 11:57 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 32 (87139)
02-17-2004 8:27 PM


I think dice, is not exactly a random thing. If you could throw the dice with exact position, exact velocity, etc. You would get the same result.. no?
[This message has been edited by Chris, 02-17-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by NosyNed, posted 02-17-2004 9:13 PM Chris has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 32 (87144)
02-17-2004 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Chris
02-17-2004 8:27 PM


I don't see that this is at all on topic. Please be careful what you post and where you post it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Chris, posted 02-17-2004 8:27 PM Chris has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chris
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 32 (87149)
02-17-2004 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NosyNed
02-17-2004 9:13 PM


Upps, sorry.. must have been miss place. Now where did I read that post again..
Thanks for the reminder.
[EDIT] I have change my last post.
[2nd EDIT]Uh.. NosyNed, actually my post that I edited was related.
I was posting regarding WT's answer.
See:
WILLOWTREE:
Genesis 22:12 has God saying to Abraham " now I know ".
Abraham was at least 120 years old in this passage and in this context God told Abraham that He finally decided that he feared Him.
Until this moment God did not know IF Abraham feared Him. It means what it says and says what it means. What do you think ?
[This message has been edited by Chris, 02-17-2004]
[This message has been edited by Chris, 02-17-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NosyNed, posted 02-17-2004 9:13 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 14 of 32 (87160)
02-17-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Primordial Egg
02-15-2004 7:42 PM


Re: Out of time?
P.E.
Allow me to quickly recap. I think this round of exchange will be the most fruitful.
I believe the God of the Bible is omniscient, with ONE exception.
My source for holding this belief is the Bible which I believe was authored by God.
Your third paragraph is correct IF it defines the exception to be the recognition of a certain type of choice........ - " should I trust/have faith in God (whatever that is) or choose to not trust/have faith in God "
But to give you a straight answer, I acknowledge that "you have this right".
P.E., I have read the next portion of your post repeatedly. I understand the experiment you offer. May I reconfigure it this way :
You create a fictitious event in order to illustrate a free will decision. The choice facing this person is christianity or remain non-christianity. In this precise context, God does not know for certain what choice this person will make. Notice I said "for certain". God, who examines the thoughts and intents of the mind and heart can predict but He does not know for sure/certain what they will choose until they actually choose/reveal their hand.
This is the nature and essence of free will/freedom to do otherwise.
God is prepared and ready to react to whichever choice the person actually ends up making. You need to understand, that in the specific context of "to trust" or "not to trust" resides the only area that His omniscient powers are not absolute. How could He know ? Adam-kind changes their mind constantly, especially when confronted with the choice to have faith or not have faith. This "teeter totter" has God ready in either scenario but He does not know for sure/certain until a person actually does whatever they do.
The leaps you make in the seventh and eighth paragraphs I do not understand.
God can work out the details, either way. He can react to the choice made anyway He wants. He just doesn't know (context already defined) for certain which way one will choose until they actually make the choice.
Here is where (I believe) your illustration degenerates.
You suddenly changed the person making the choice from a would be christian into a "heathen" with their hand on a holocaust button.
To this person, God knows exactly what they will do because He knows every thing about them including their bottom line. He knows what they truly want and what they will do to get it. Maybe this is why God has prevented certain third world countries from obtaining nuclear technology. The Bible does say, however, that God will shorten "the time" as to prevent man from destroying himself.
God knows what the buttons are really connected to.
Your entire scenario is intended to conclude that there must be other things God does not know. My response to this is : You need to evidence this belief from a source outside of your own subjective views (which I readily acknowledge to be some evidence).
I have only argued that the omniscience of God has only one exception, and I provided an objective piece of evidence supporting this belief. (Genesis 22:12) (there are others).
You are arguing that God must be completely omniscient or there must be more than one thing He does not know - substantiate this position or concede the point until you can.
God can see the consequences of trust decisions. "consequences" is the wrong term if you trust Him, He now has the basis to manifest His promise and bring to pass what you are trusting Him for. "consequences" is the right term if the person chooses not to trust Him.
God constantly seeks to place people He is interested in, to position them in situations to see if they will choose to trust Him or not. This was the case with Abraham. Hebrews tells us what Abraham was thinking when it says that he believed God would of raised Isaac from the dead if He didn't stay his hand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Primordial Egg, posted 02-15-2004 7:42 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Chris, posted 02-18-2004 5:18 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 18 by Primordial Egg, posted 02-27-2004 2:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 32 (87188)
02-18-2004 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
02-17-2004 11:57 PM


WILLOWTREE,
I'm sorry but I little bit disagree, if you said:
[ qs ] God doesn't know for certain what you are going to do until you actually do it. But this doesn't mean He isn't ready to react - He is. [ /qs ]
If GOD doesn't know for certain what is going to happen, how come He can make prophecies without changing anything(effecting free-will)?
Could contradict the free-will consept.
What I believe, is the same like Mike the Wiz, GOD will know whatever outcome it will be or "All-Knowing".
Let's take Pharaoh, as an example:
God did say (prophecy) to Abraham: Genesis 15:14 -> And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
In here I believe GOD already knew that the Pharaoh or the people of Egypt would be deserved to be judge, so God would hardend Pharaoh heart.. so that nation would be judged before Pharaoh let the Hebrew people go, just like what GOD said.
And about Abraham,
I think GOD knew already that Abraham would do that (sacrifice his child). But.. faith apart from works is dead (Jacob 2:20), so HE made Abraham did what he had to do just to fullfill Abraham's faith. It's for Abraham, not for GOD.
What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Chris, 02-18-2004]
[This message has been edited by Chris, 02-18-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-17-2004 11:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-19-2004 3:15 PM Chris has replied

  
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