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Author Topic:   When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 271 of 702 (570100)
07-25-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Buzsaw
07-24-2010 10:29 PM


Re: When does design become intelligent?
Hi, Buzsaw.
Buzsaw writes:
didn't mean to imply the same intuitive non-formalized sense of design as earth natives. I mean enough time to observe a variety of objects on our planet.
But, that is exactly what you are saying when you say things like this:
Buzsaw writes:
Logically an alien would soon be able to distinguish a paper clip and things alive as designed and things like dirt, rocks, lakes, and icicles which are inanimate as undesigned, assuming, that is, that the alien is of sufficient intelligence to make such determinations, say at least as intelligent as earth humans.
How would this alien be able to distinguish these things?
If your answer is "by experience," then what you are proposing is an intuitive, non-formalized system for determining design.
In order to answer the question from the OP ("When does design become intelligent?"), we need a formalized approach. Otherwise, we don't really know why we think X is designed and Y is not. So, we can't use it well outside of our realm of experience, we can't teach other people how to do it, and we can't discern things for which the distinction is ambiguous.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2010 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 272 of 702 (570102)
07-25-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ICdesign
07-24-2010 11:47 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Why would natural selection/ random mutation choose to build the skull with the perfect size and shape to house the brain?
And isn't it funny how the tea somehow knows to adopt the shape of the teacup? Intelligent Pouring!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ICdesign, posted 07-24-2010 11:47 PM ICdesign has not replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4798 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 273 of 702 (570122)
07-25-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Huntard
07-25-2010 12:06 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Tell me, is this a bad design (thank you Subbie):
OK Subbie, I keep seeing your antenna so here is my response.
I think that is probably a antenna developed on a computer designed by intelligent designers on an algorithm program designed by intelligent designers. Then after all that, it was fashioned by an intelligent person with materials developed by intelligent people.
Come back and see me when it can do it without intelligent help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Huntard, posted 07-25-2010 12:06 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by subbie, posted 07-25-2010 7:41 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 277 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-25-2010 7:52 PM ICdesign has not replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4798 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 274 of 702 (570124)
07-25-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Huntard
07-25-2010 10:27 AM


Re: following the vein of logic...
So far the responses I am seeing are so foolish and nonsensical I feel like I should open another topic to answer them called:
"When does ignorance become moronic stupidity"
They developed alongside eachother.
How is this possible when the theory of evolution requires one small step at a time in one direction?
Are you telling me that you believe more than one system develops at a time. Where is your proof and evidence that the skull, brain and eyes developed at the same time.
I have much, much tougher questions than this for evolution to answer as soon as we get past this simple stuff.
Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Huntard, posted 07-25-2010 10:27 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 07-25-2010 6:48 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2010 8:47 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 279 by Blue Jay, posted 07-25-2010 9:11 PM ICdesign has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 275 of 702 (570126)
07-25-2010 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICdesign
07-25-2010 6:25 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
How is this possible when the theory of evolution requires one small step at a time in one direction?
Evolution has no direction.
ICDESIGN writes:
Are you telling me that you believe more than one system develops at a time.
It should be pretty obvious that more than one system develops at a time.
ICDESIGN writes:
Where is your proof and evidence that the skull, brain and eyes developed at the same time.
Learn to ask for evidence, not proof.
The evidence is in every living organism. There are skulls, brains and eyes at every "stage" of development.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can\'t find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICdesign, posted 07-25-2010 6:25 PM ICdesign has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 276 of 702 (570136)
07-25-2010 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ICdesign
07-25-2010 6:13 PM


Antenna gains
I think that is probably a antenna developed on a computer designed by intelligent designers on an algorithm program designed by intelligent designers. Then after all that, it was fashioned by an intelligent person with materials developed by intelligent people.
Well here's your opportunity to educate yourself. This is an outline prepared by the company that produced the antennae. You can continue to think what you think without any factual basis, and continue to look ignorant, or you can see what they actually did and we can move on from there.
Ball's in your court, Slick.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ICdesign, posted 07-25-2010 6:13 PM ICdesign has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 2:25 PM subbie has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 277 of 702 (570138)
07-25-2010 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ICdesign
07-25-2010 6:13 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
OK Subbie, I keep seeing your antenna so here is my response.
I think that is probably a antenna developed on a computer designed by intelligent designers on an algorithm program designed by intelligent designers. Then after all that, it was fashioned by an intelligent person with materials developed by intelligent people.
Who designed the antenna?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ICdesign, posted 07-25-2010 6:13 PM ICdesign has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 278 of 702 (570141)
07-25-2010 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICdesign
07-25-2010 6:25 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Are you telling me that you believe more than one system develops at a time.
In the body? As it grows? Yes, absolutely.
The way your skull "knows" to be as big as your brain is that your brain grows at the same time as your skull. All those tissues develop at the same time, next to each other, and they signal each other where to grow to. Your brain gets signals from bone cells that say "stop growing here." Your skin and muscles "know" to grow as long as your leg bones because the muscles get chemical signals that say "grow and attach to these points." And muscle cells produce signals that say "cover us with skin."
There aren't instructions in your genetics for your eyes to be a certain size, your bones to be a certain length, your skull to be a certain volume. Your body is harmonious not by design but because your cells are sending each other signals to keep it that way. Your body can't be the result of genetic design because much of it isn't designed; your genes don't contain a blueprint of your adult body. They contain blueprints for proteins.
No part of your genetics specifies your height in inches, the length of your arms, how much skin your body needs to cover all of your muscles and organs. None of that can be the result of genetic design because none of that is ever specified in your genetics. The proportions of your body, ultimately, are determined by your body itself, as your cells make arrangements - and even compete - amongst each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICdesign, posted 07-25-2010 6:25 PM ICdesign has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2010 9:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 279 of 702 (570143)
07-25-2010 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICdesign
07-25-2010 6:25 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Hi, ICDESIGN.
ICDESIGN writes:
How is this possible when the theory of evolution requires one small step at a time in one direction?
This is not what the Theory of Evolution says. No where is an exact process dictated. The ToE can handle situations where multiple changes happen at roughly the same time; or where large changes occur; or where no changes happen for a long time.
The gradualistic paradigm of evolution isn't saying that evolution has to progress in discreet phases. There is no rule that says an organism cannot evolve X right now because they are currently working on evolving Y.
Remember, it's a population that evolves, not an individual. Within a population, there may be one individual with one new trait, and another individual with another new trait. Over time, these two new traits may come to dominate the population. And, they can both start at the same time.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICdesign, posted 07-25-2010 6:25 PM ICdesign has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 702 (570145)
07-25-2010 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by crashfrog
07-25-2010 8:47 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
crashfrog writes:
In the body? As it grows? Yes, absolutely.
The way your skull "knows" to be as big as your brain is that your brain grows at the same time as your skull. All those tissues develop at the same time, next to each other, and they signal each other where to grow to. Your brain gets signals from bone cells that say "stop growing here." Your skin and muscles "know" to grow as long as your leg bones because the muscles get chemical signals that say "grow and attach to these points." And muscle cells produce signals that say "cover us with skin."
There aren't instructions in your genetics for your eyes to be a certain size, your bones to be a certain length, your skull to be a certain volume. Your body is harmonious not by design but because your cells are sending each other signals to keep it that way. Your body can't be the result of genetic design because much of it isn't designed; your genes don't contain a blueprint of your adult body. They contain blueprints for proteins.
No part of your genetics specifies your height in inches, the length of your arms, how much skin your body needs to cover all of your muscles and organs. None of that can be the result of genetic design because none of that is ever specified in your genetics. The proportions of your body, ultimately, are determined by your body itself, as your cells make arrangements - and even compete - amongst each other.
Truly amazing; the enormity of intelligence in genes, cells and DNA. So all this intelligence is what has allegedly driven evolution to relatively continuous progression into ultra complex design for scores of millions of years into what is observed today.
We don't seem to hear a whole lot about how all this amazing intelligence got into the earliest genes, cells and DNA so as to get get and keep this alleged evolution ball rolling in the direction of progression into more complexity, especially when just about everything else we observe with our naked eyes rusts, deterioriates, winds down, goes chaotic, rots, and disintegrates into disorder.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2010 8:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Blue Jay, posted 07-25-2010 10:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2010 10:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 283 by Coyote, posted 07-25-2010 11:02 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 285 by anglagard, posted 07-26-2010 1:36 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 286 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-26-2010 7:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 281 of 702 (570148)
07-25-2010 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Buzsaw
07-25-2010 9:45 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Hi, Buzsaw.
Buzsaw writes:
Truly amazing; the enormity of intelligence in genes, cells and DNA. So all this intelligence is what has allegedly driven evolution...
There is no reason to think that this is "intelligence." Yet.
We're still waiting for you, or one of the other three creationists on this thread, to provide us with a reason.
So, why can't chemical signaling just be chemistry?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2010 9:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 282 of 702 (570151)
07-25-2010 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Buzsaw
07-25-2010 9:45 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Truly amazing; the enormity of intelligence in genes, cells and DNA.
Well, no. Intelligence would be specific genes for bone length, skin area, brain volume. Intelligence would be organisms that were endlessly identical mold-copies of each other, with interchangeable parts.
We don't seem to hear a whole lot about how all this amazing intelligence got into the earliest genes, cells and DNA so as to get get
Well, what are your thoughts on the RNA world?
The earliest cells would have had little need for extracellular signaling. That's an adaptation to a world of scarcity and competition. The early Earth is a world of plenty for the earliest organisms, a world where organisms are barely more complex than their inorganic food sources.
especially when just about everything else we observe with our naked eyes rusts, deterioriates, winds down, goes chaotic, rots, and disintegrates into disorder.
That entropy isn't an obstacle to life. Entropy is what makes life possible in the first place. Every metabolic process in your body is one that exploits an increase in entropy.
Your body is a battlefield, not the result of somebody's design. The more you find out about biology the more obvious that is. But you're determined to avoid education in the sciences because your cherished dogma is more important.
I pity you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2010 9:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 283 of 702 (570152)
07-25-2010 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Buzsaw
07-25-2010 9:45 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Truly amazing; the enormity of intelligence in genes, cells and DNA.
It is simply trial and error.
What works gets to roll the dice again. What doesn't is out of the game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2010 9:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Buzsaw, posted 07-26-2010 7:56 AM Coyote has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 284 of 702 (570154)
07-25-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Bolder-dash
07-25-2010 6:53 AM


Re: Logical Answer
Bolder-dash writes:
Secondly, everything else you wrote seems the product of a mind addled by PTSD or acute syphilitic brain damage-so forgive me if I cross you off the list of possible sources of new knowledge.
Congratulations, in five years of posting here you are the first fundie ever to follow a link.
Secondly, I will always consider you a source of new knowledge, false as it may be, just as I read up on fundie delusion literature.
That is why I will always have more information than my opponents. In fact I probably know more about the history of your delusions than you do, not bad for a purported syphlitic with PTSD, eh?
Edited by anglagard, : tried to provide a link, didn\'t work
Edited by anglagard, : restore text

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-25-2010 6:53 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 285 of 702 (570160)
07-26-2010 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Buzsaw
07-25-2010 9:45 PM


Re: following the vein of logic...
Good ol' Buz, hadn't seen you lately and was beginning to worry you may have OD'ed on Comfrey tea or something.
If you want to meet us halfway (a doubtful proposition), you may want to read something other than the Bible. Your words in this post remind me of Liebnitz' Monad Theory, which caught sick with Spinoza and was buried by Voltaire.
For a rather hilarious account of how Liebnitz was pretty much wrong about everything except calculus, in particular his idea we live in the best of all possible worlds, read Candide, it is free on the net.
Now for a quick review:
Singularity - evidence: universal background radiation
Expansion of the universe - evidence: red shift (Doppler effect)
Coalescing of matter into planets and stars - evidence: gravity
Explosions of supernovas in order to create heavy elements - evidence: astronomy, radiation
Assembly of complex organic molecules in space - evidence: astronomy (spectroscopy) meteorites (chemistry)
Assembly of complex organic molecules into proto-RNA - evidence: chemistry (in the lab in front of your face)
Assembly of proto-RNA to life - evidence: forthcoming (the last 'missing link')
Evolution - evidence: physics, chemistry, geology, biology, agriculture, history and modern (as opposed to witch-doctor) medicine
If you would like to further understand the connection between the observed and the conclusions, I suggest using a library. You may want to start with Ridley's Genome or Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.
For a start.
Oh, I forgot, you are beyond all learning as you are self-proclaimed infallible. Either that or the old saw concerning old dogs and new tricks.
Did it ever occur to you or anyone of your ilk that cursing God's works and cursing all good works of humans in favor of making a graven idol of the Bible, contrary to the very text within, may be a big mistake?

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2010 9:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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