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Author Topic:   Genuine Puzzles In Biology?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 153 (586533)
10-13-2010 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Stephen Push
10-13-2010 5:38 PM


Re: Free Will
Often it is somewhat more than that. Often you must create the options in your mind, work out the details and then test them.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Stephen Push, posted 10-13-2010 5:38 PM Stephen Push has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 62 of 153 (586544)
10-13-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Stephen Push
10-13-2010 5:38 PM


Re: Free Will
By way of suggesting a practical value of imagination, you seem to be describing a conversation with yourself in which you choose from two or more options. That seems to suggest the exercise of free will. Unless this internal conversation is just an illusion without effect on the outcome. But if so, where is the practical value?
No, hold on.
It may be true that given any particular state of my brain, the result of exercising my imagination will be inevitable; and certain philosophers would conclude from this (wrongly, in my view, since I am a compatibilist) that I have no free will and have not really made a choice.
But even if we grant all this, it does not follow that the non-choice I don't-really-make as a result of exercising the faculty of imagination is the same as the non-choice I'd have not-really-made if I lacked this faculty: because to possess and use that faculty is part of the brain-state which determines my actions.
(By analogy, if I know that bleach is poisonous, it may be the case that I cannot choose to drink it; and a philosopher might tell me that I am suffering from a mere illusion of choosing not to drink bleach. But it does not follow that this knowledge is completely useless to me, because if I lacked that knowledge and thought instead that bleach was a tasty and refreshing beverage, then I might drink it. The knowledge is useful and not superfluous precisely because my actions are determined --- and that knowledge is one of the things that determines my actions.)
And so, so long as I make superior non-choices with an imagination than without one, which I think is beyond doubt, then it is biologically advantageous to possess the faculty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Stephen Push, posted 10-13-2010 5:38 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 63 of 153 (586563)
10-13-2010 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2010 7:24 PM


Re: Free Will
And so, so long as I make superior non-choices with an imagination than without one, which I think is beyond doubt, then it is biologically advantageous to possess the faculty.
Well put. I see your point and agree. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 7:24 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 64 of 153 (586564)
10-13-2010 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2010 7:24 PM


Re: Free Will
And so, so long as I make superior non-choices with an imagination than without one, which I think is beyond doubt, then it is biologically advantageous to possess the faculty.
Well put. I see your point and agree. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 7:24 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 65 of 153 (590070)
11-05-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2010 1:40 PM


The point is, she knew that she had solved the puzzle before she actually got the bananas, because she was capable of thinking: if I do this, then bananas will ensue.
This is not exactly what I was thinking of when I was refering to imagination, however, I will conceed that it may not be a uniquely human trait. I could even see how this trait could develop: if a memory can be stored in the brain as an image then recalling it at a later time when the original image was not present would technically be using imagination. Then, using the higher analytical powers of our more advanced brains, we could manipulate, combine and control those images so as to create new images. Perhaps the puzzle is how those images are even stored in our brains.
However, I still see imagination as used in the creative process as being a genuine puzzle. How do we imagine things we have never seen? How do we create art that stirs emotions? Why are some people extremely imaginative and others can't paint a room in two complimentary colors?
Well, it's useful. In order to be able to plan ahead, we have to be able to say to ourselves: "What would happen if I do such-and-such a thing?"
Maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way and making it more complicated than it is, but I see imagination as much more than just reasoning. Computers use reasoning and logic, but not imagination. Computers can only use the data that has been input into them. When we use imagination, we not only use the data that has been input, but make up our own data. Imagination comes from deeper within us. It comes from our dreams, our feelings, our experiences and from other places unknown. At least that's how I see it and why I say it is a genuine puzzle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 1:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 153 (590073)
11-05-2010 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by herebedragons
11-05-2010 4:15 PM


Not too long ago I was channel hopping and came across a documentary on crows.
One segment revolved around problem solving and how quickly the crows could figure out a solution when presented with a new situation.
The answer was nearly immediately.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by herebedragons, posted 11-05-2010 4:15 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2010 5:09 PM jar has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 153 (590078)
11-05-2010 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
11-05-2010 4:30 PM


Not too long ago I was channel hopping and came across a documentary on crows.
Was that the one where they were dropping nuts on the street and waiting for cars to drive over and break them? And they even figured out to wait for the red lights to run out there and pick them up?
That was schweet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 11-05-2010 4:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 69 by Stephen Push, posted 11-06-2010 2:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 153 (590081)
11-05-2010 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
11-05-2010 5:09 PM


May have been, I've seen that one as well. In this segment though they were testing to see if the crows could work out tool related problems, using multiple tools in sequence to get food.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2010 5:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 69 of 153 (590175)
11-06-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
11-05-2010 5:09 PM


Animal Cognition & Consciousness
A study has shown that crows actually do not use autombiles as nutcrackers.
Nevertheless, this anecdote points to another set of Genuine Puzzles in Biology: animal cognition and consciousness.
Are animals conscious? What emotions do they feel? Do they have a theory of mind? Many interesting questions.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2010 5:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-06-2010 2:54 PM Stephen Push has replied
 Message 71 by nwr, posted 11-06-2010 3:09 PM Stephen Push has replied
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2010 3:16 AM Stephen Push has replied
 Message 89 by Parasomnium, posted 11-18-2010 2:27 AM Stephen Push has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 153 (590177)
11-06-2010 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Stephen Push
11-06-2010 2:00 PM


Re: Animal Cognition & Consciousness
Research has shown that crows actually do not use autombiles as nutcrackers:
How'd they show that?
Video shows that they do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NenEdSuL7QU
Dude, crows are smart. Like way smart. Check out this one make a hook:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ykewnc0oE
Tool use?
So now what?
Nevertheless, this anecdote points to another set of Genuine Puzzles in Biology: animal cognition and consciousness.
I'd wager its less puzzling than you think...
Are animals conscious?
Well, they're not unconscious (unless they're sleeping).
A better word for what I think you're talking about would be sentient, no?
What emotions do they feel?
How about another anecdote:
When I was a kid, my friend's mom brought home their little white curly dog after it had just gotten totally shaved for the summer. I sware, that dog was embarrassed. I had never seen it hide and whine under the couch like, ever. Eventually it would come out, and then we'd point and laugh at it (it really was incredibly funny looking), and then it'd run and hide and whine some more.
Although, you could argue that it was just following instincts and not really feeling an emotion and that we were just anthropomorphizing it. So whatever.
Do they have a theory of mind?
Animals? Only humans have theories.
Many interesting questions.
Yes, but I think the science of animal cognition has probably gotten further than you're aware, what with the asking if they're conscious or not, so you should look into it if you find it interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Stephen Push, posted 11-06-2010 2:00 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 71 of 153 (590180)
11-06-2010 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Stephen Push
11-06-2010 2:00 PM


Re: Animal Cognition & Consciousness
shadow71 writes:
If this link doesn't work, ...
It doesn't. Try the following:
No webpage found at provided URL: http://courses2.cit.cornell.edu/bionb221/WIM/resources/Cristol%20et%20al%20(1997)%20-%20Crows%20do%20not%20use%20automobiles%20as%20nutcrackers%20-%20Putting%20an%20anecdote%20to%20the%20test.pdf
What I used there was [url]the_link_in_full[/url] which usually works better for complex urls.
Even better is to use [url=the_link_in_full]short name[/url] which normally works without blowing the margins.
Edited by nwr, : typo

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Stephen Push, posted 11-06-2010 2:00 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 72 of 153 (590244)
11-07-2010 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by nwr
11-06-2010 3:09 PM


Re: Animal Cognition & Consciousness
Thanks for the tip on links, nwr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by nwr, posted 11-06-2010 3:09 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 73 of 153 (590247)
11-07-2010 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Stephen Push
11-06-2010 2:00 PM


Re: Animal Cognition & Consciousness
Are animals conscious? What emotions do they feel? Do they have a theory of mind?
These are all excellent questions which I shall answer the moment I figure out how to read the mind of a crow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Stephen Push, posted 11-06-2010 2:00 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Stephen Push, posted 11-07-2010 3:37 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 74 of 153 (590248)
11-07-2010 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
11-06-2010 2:54 PM


Re: Animal Cognition & Consciousness
Catholic Scientist writes:
How'd they show that?
Video shows that they do:
While we can't rule out the possibility that the particular crow in the video learned to use cars as nutcrackers, anecdotal evidence can be misleading. In the study, reasearchers did 231 paired observations of crows with and without cars approaching. The crows were no more likely to drop walnuts on the road if cars were approaching than if cars were not approaching.
Dude, crows are smart. Like way smart. Check out this one make a hook:
Yes, tool use in crows is well documented.
Well, they're not unconscious (unless they're sleeping).
A better word for what I think you're talking about would be sentient, no?
Definitions are part of the problem. Researchers in this field often have different definitions of what they mean by consciousness. We don't even understand consciousness in humans, so it's probably not possible at this stage to understand it in animals.
Even sentience is a problem. I can make a good case that mammals are sentient. But what about fish? Or crustaceans? There are serious researchers who claim all of these animals can feel pain. These claims seem plausible, but I don't see the objective tests.
When I was a kid, my friend's mom brought home their little white curly dog after it had just gotten totally shaved for the summer. I sware, that dog was embarrassed. I had never seen it hide and whine under the couch like, ever. Eventually it would come out, and then we'd point and laugh at it (it really was incredibly funny looking), and then it'd run and hide and whine some more.
Maybe your friend's dog was embarassed; or maybe it was reacting to your behavior. For example, many dog owners believe their dogs display a guilty look after misbehaving. But a study shows that the so-called "guilty look" is a reaction to the behavior of the owner when the owner believes the dog has misbehaved.
Animals? Only humans have theories.
"Theory of mind" refers to the ability to recognize that individuals other than oneself have beliefs and desires. Humans have this ability. Some researchers claim that some other species have this ability, too. But the interpretation of this research is ambiguous, since the observed behaviors may have other explanations, such as prior trial-and-error learning.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by herebedragons, posted 12-02-2010 11:27 AM Stephen Push has replied

Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 75 of 153 (590249)
11-07-2010 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2010 3:16 AM


Re: Animal Cognition & Consciousness
Dr Adequate writes:
These are all excellent questions which I shall answer the moment I figure out how to read the mind of a crow.
What about Gallup's mirror test? Don't you think that demonstrates self-awareness in chimpanzees, dolphins, and the other species that have passed the test?
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2010 3:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2010 4:45 AM Stephen Push has replied
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