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| Author | Topic: Can anything exist for an infinite time or outside of time? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee Member  Posts: 572 From: UK Registered: Member Rating: 3.7 |
If God wasn’t created by anything else and has always existed, as is often suggested, how long did he wait before creating the Universe/Earth/Humans? Surely if time goes infinitely back, and something had always existed, it would never get to any point in the future. It couldn’t, because it would have to wait for an infinite amount of time to get to any point in the future. So it seems impossible to me that anything could have always existed. It seems that everything, including time, must have a beginning. I am aware of the scientific view that it doesn’t even make sense to consider time before the Big Bang, because time started with the Big Bang. And I am aware of the religious counterpoint, that God existed “outside” of time and created time along with the Universe. But can anything “exist” before time? Does “existence” not require time? Thoughts?
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AdminSlev Administrator  Posts: 52 From: Registered: Member Rating: 3 |
Where do you want this ? Big Bang and cosmology ? I figure on it depends on what type of answers you want back
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee Member Posts: 572 From: UK Registered: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Good question. I think Big Bang & Cosmology is the most appropriate forum because, although there's a religious aspect to this, I'm really looking for a scientific explanation.
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AdminSlev Administrator Posts: 52 From: Registered: Member Rating: 3 |
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nwr Member  Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: Member Rating: 3.9 |
That depends on what the meaning of "exist" is. Many mathematicians believe that, say, the Pythagorus theorem is an eternal truth that exists outside of time and space. It would be fair to say that their meaning for "exist" is different from that of ordinary physical existence. If we allow the mathematician to take such liberties with meanings, why not also allow the theist?
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Son Goku Member  Posts: 643 From: Ireland Registered: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Just to answer this question, there is nothing in the current laws of physics to suggest that something can't live arbitrarily long into the future. As for having an arbitrarily long past, well there is nothing in the laws of physics to suggest that can't happen either. It can't happen in our universe because our universe is not infinitely long in the past direction. However this isn't a logical consequence of General Relativity or Quantum Field Theory, it's just a feature of our universe. Of course it could be that a later theory of physics will have our universe's finite past as a logical consequence.
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slevesque Member  Posts: 1005 From: Registered: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Therefore, if General relativity or Quantum Field Theory tells us that our universe has an end, then it becoems a logical consequence of those theories that it had a finite past. I also noticed you say ''arbitrarily long past'' instead of infinite, any reason why ?
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Son Goku Member Posts: 643 From: Ireland Registered: Member Rating: 4.7 Message Rating: 5
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That's also not necessarily the case. For instance in General Relativity it is possible for a particle to live forever in the past direction and at some finite time in the future have its "life" end by falling into a black hole. It sounds bizarre though and of course it's can't happen in our universe, but Quantum Field Theory and General Relativity don't logically forbid it.
Yes, nicely spotted. Basically because it's a more accurate way of saying what is going on. At any arbitrary point in the past the object still exists, no matter how far in the past you look. This avoids the confusion usually associated with infinity and is basically the mathematical notion used in General Relativity.
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Flyer75 Member  Posts: 238 From: Dayton, OH Registered: Member Rating: 3.9 Message Rating: 4
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Interesting topic chimp. As a believer, no, I don't think anything can exist outside of time, except God. I believe God created time and before that it didn't even exist. How could it? How would we calculate what that time was if God was always in existence? Now, how would this apply to evolution (if I assumed the big bang were true). What was time before the event??? Did it exist or did the Big Bang "create" time? Also, I tend to agree with slev's post. For something to fit into time, it would technically have to have a beginning and an end. Would the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics have anything to say about this for those who know more about it then I do?
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onifre Member  Posts: 2790 From: Dark Side of the Moon Registered: Member Rating: 3.9 |
Time is a unit of measuring, time requires humans. It would be like asking, does space require length, width and height? These are things used to measure space, not space itself. Time is used to measure the interval between two events. The problem IMHO with your question is, the alternative to "exist" is a meaningless concept. There is only existence, nothingness is not definable.
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DC85 Member  Posts: 818 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Registered: Member Rating: 3.5 |
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cavediver Member  Posts: 3534 From: UK Registered: Member Rating: 4.1 |
No, not true. (related to Son Goku's answer) There is no universal parameter of time in any of our current theories of physics. In other words, there is no great clock in the sky ticking away moments of time, such that our own individual "now" is carried along by this clock's own time. The only "passage of time" that occurs in physics is that of our own awareness, and there is actually nothing to align all of these individual clocks other than convention (this takes us into some very interesting areas on the question of awareness and physics.) So to sum up - as far as we know, an awareness simply sees passage of time in the region of the Universe where that awareness is located. The Universe could be temporally infinite, semi-infinite (in either direction) or finite, and this would make no difference to how an awareness perceives time.
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cavediver Member Posts: 3534 From: UK Registered: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Hi Chimp, please see my previous post for my reply.
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Buzsaw Member  Posts: 7678 From: new york usa Registered: Member Rating: 2.5 Message Rating: 2
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Hi Flyer. As a believer and an ardent student of the Bible, I believe that according to the Bible, Jehovah, the Biblical god has eternally existed in the cosmos/heavens. Therefore, the universe is essentially a perpetual machine where God has been creating, destroying and managing things in the universe to suit his purpose and pleasure. Imo, this makes a lot more sense as per the LoTs and since the BB obviously had no time in which to happen, no space existing to happen in and no outside of in which to expand. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee Member Posts: 572 From: UK Registered: Member Rating: 3.7 |
I see what you mean, and so in my opinion no intelligent entitiy (aka God) could exist before time - and therefore could not create time. However, are you or anyone else aware if there is anything (even if only in theory) that can "exist" that is truly inert (i.e. it has no energy, no radiation, etc). If there were such a thing, presumably it would "exist" without time, as there would be no events occuring that could be measured. Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : No reason given.
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