quote:US President Barack Obama's endorsement of a controversial plan to build a mosque just blocks from Ground Zero poured fuel Saturday on a raging debate over religious freedom and sensitivities over the 9/11 attacks.
Obama's main point is this:
quote:"This is America," Obama said, "and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are."
But critics have offered this in rebuttle:
quote:Obama "has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," the group said.
"Now this president declares that the victims of 9/11 and their families must bear another burden. We must stand silent at the last place in America where 9/11 is still remembered with reverence or risk being called religious bigots."
Building the mosque "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah," the group claimed.
Personally, I could care less if a mosque was built on ground zero. I don't think ground zero is anything more that a piece of property where something bad happened once. This personal attatchment to this piece of land as some kind of representation of freedom and America, to me, seems rather pointless.
It's terrible what happened to those buildings, and worse what happened to the people in them. But that's it really. Why the constant reminder of what happend that day and the treatment of this property as holy ground?
Do we run the risk of turning ground zero into a quasi-Jerusalem? Seems like not allowing the mosque gives priority to the rights of Christians and Jews before the rights of the common citizen, be them from any religious or secular background.
Building the mosque "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah," the group claimed.
Yeah, nothing provokes Muslims more than being allowed to build mosques. You'd think if it annoyed them that much they could just stop building mosques, but you know what religious folks are like.
I predict wave after wave of Islamic suicide bombers demanding that American Muslims be stripped of their First Amendment rights.
I note the article ends with the news that a Florida church is organizing a book-burning. This might conciliate them somewhat, but it hardly amounts to the governmental suppression of their religion that these fanatics are apparently prepared to kill and die for.
Personally, I could care less if a mosque was built on ground zero. I don't think ground zero is anything more that a piece of property where something bad happened once. This personal attatchment to this piece of land as some kind of representation of freedom and America, to me, seems rather pointless.
The bottom line is that there is no legal argument that would prevent anyone from purchasing the property. The question is whether or not it is a good investment. I have no doubt that this mosque will be subject to rampant vandalism, or worse, will be completely destroyed.
It's an insulting gesture to many Americans, something akin to:
1. Building a statue of Hitler at Auschwitz 2. Building a GWB monument in Bagdad 3. Building a Benihana at Pearl Harbor
(Not my material)
"Twist the knife a little deeper, and then pour salt on to the wound," is how a lot of Americans feel.
But even still, an insult is not against the law, so....
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
As I understand it the proposal is to build an Islamic centre at least 2 blocks from Ground Zero and I think that there's a mosque nearby already.
The property is vacant and owned by the people who want to build the Islamic centre, the zoning rules allow it and there is no legal reason to stop it.
The people behind it are not radical Islamists or Al Quaeda supporters.
This really seems a no-brainer. I don't see how the government can intervene without some infringement of liberty and without creating the potential for further infringements. Should we then start to demand the removal of Churches close to the sites of atrocities carried out by anyone who was even nominally a Christian ?
It's an insulting gesture to many Americans, something akin to:
1. Building a statue of Hitler at Auschwitz 2. Building a GWB monument in Bagdad 3. Building a Benihana at Pearl Harbor
What utter bollocks.
It's an insulting gesture equivalent to building a church near a children's play centre - i.e. it isn't an insulting gesture. The notion that you can blithely equate the roughly billion Muslims in the world, and more specifically the millions of US citizens who are also Muslims, with the handful of people involved in the 9/11 attack who also happen to be Muslims is utter bullshit.
Or should we be assuming that all Christians are kiddy fiddlers on the basis of a few priests?
It's an insulting gesture equivalent to building a church near a children's play centre - i.e. it isn't an insulting gesture. The notion that you can blithely equate the roughly billion Muslims in the world, and more specifically the millions of US citizens who are also Muslims, with the handful of people involved in the 9/11 attack who also happen to be Muslims is utter bullshit.
What are you getting pissed at me for? Don't shoot the messenger. Right or wrong, this is how many Americans view it -- as in imposition on sacred ground.
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
Should we then start to demand the removal of Churches close to the sites of atrocities carried out by anyone who was even nominally a Christian ?
Yes, therefore every Christian church erected in this country exists as a blatant double standard to those who would deny the construction of this mosque. If not for the subjugation, interment and outright forced conversion of the Native American people during the times of the Western Frontier, we may have had somewhat of a point. As it is, this black eye alone should serve as a reminder of our moral hypocrisy when any question of religious intolerance comes up. And that's just in our country. What about Central and South American cultures, or the indigenous peoples of New Zealand and Australia?
As an American, the WTC atrocity is like a mostly-healed scar that still aches once in a while. I'm not so closed-minded that I associate all of Islam with these extremists, but I do understand there are those who are closer to all this who have no choice but to never forgive. I'm not sure what the builders of this mosque hope to gain besides broken windows (do they have windows?) and endless graffiti. But I do think that if they own the property and that if all zoning regulations are adhered to, the government has no business getting its fingers into anything. Except for the resulting violence, of course...
Obama made the right decision.
Have a good one.
"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964
We look at Britain in WWII, after the onslaught of the Battle of Britain. And we see Churchill (who was a conservative), saying words to the effect of
We are the proud and free We are the British Press on regardless.
And the British did press on, and the enemy was defeated.
And now we look at USA after 9/11, which was a far smaller event than the Battle of Britain. And what was our response? In effect, it was:
Let us cower in terror in our bunkers. Let us be afraid to travel. Let us dismantle our constitution out of our fear. Let us dismantle habeas corpus out of our fear. Let us abandon our constitutional prohibition of torture. Let us abandon our constitutional freedom of religion.
Osama wins, but not because he methods were effective. Osama wins because we are a nation of cowards, who abandon principle after a minor provocation. Osama wins because we are a nation of fools, who abandon common sense and move into the irrationality of mob rule.
Emotion is the opposite of reason and logic. We are emotional creatures on a long road to suppressing our emotions and finding balance. We shouldnt discount the emotional aspect of this situation nor should we cower from it. That guy in the video, like many others, is blinded by his intuitive emotions.
A few blocks away from the World Trade Center is Masjid Manhattan. It's right near one of my favorite "must stop by spots " in Manhattan, the Fountain Pen Hospital and it's been there (may have moved a couple doors down the street I think) at least since the 70s. It's a tiny place and can't hold all the congregation so often the people end up out on the street and sidewalks.
Honestly, I don't understand why people are getting upset.
Edited by jar, : appalin grmmer two
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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