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EvC Forum ⇒ All Forums ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Bible Study ⇒ Death before the 'Fall'?

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Originator Info Brian Member Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Registered: 10-22-2002 Member Rating: 3.1

Participants (40) No. Posts (230) Member's Posts jaywill 44 jaywill Posts Only Rrhain 17 Rrhain Posts Only Brian 15 Brian Posts Only Garrett 11 Garrett Posts Only jar 11 jar Posts Only purpledawn 11 purpledawn Posts Only randman 10 randman Posts Only arachnophilia 9 arachnophilia Posts Only Mr. Ex Nihilo 9 Mr. Ex Nihilo Posts Only Chiroptera 8 Chiroptera Posts Only Faith 8 Faith Posts Only AdminPD 7 AdminPD Posts Only iano 7 iano Posts Only nwr 7 nwr Posts Only Phat 7 Phat Posts Only ramoss 5 ramoss Posts Only ReverendDG 5 ReverendDG Posts Only Coragyps 4 Coragyps Posts Only Silent H 4 Silent H Posts Only Funkaloyd 3 Funkaloyd Posts Only Jazzns 2 Jazzns Posts Only lfen 2 lfen Posts Only macaroniandcheese 2 macaroniandcheese Posts Only Nighttrain 2 Nighttrain Posts Only pianoprincess* 2 pianoprincess* Posts Only riVeRraT 2 riVeRraT Posts Only sidelined 2 sidelined Posts Only Yaro 2 Yaro Posts Only Admin 1 Admin Posts Only AdminAsgara 1 AdminAsgara Posts Only AdminJar 1 AdminJar Posts Only AdminNosy 1 AdminNosy Posts Only AdminNWR 1 AdminNWR Posts Only Cold Foreign Object 1 Cold Foreign Object Posts Only dancer 1 dancer Posts Only DrJones* 1 DrJones* Posts Only Jman 1 Jman Posts Only NosyNed 1 NosyNed Posts Only ReformedRob 1 ReformedRob Posts Only whyjewask 1 whyjewask Posts Only

Thread Info Originated: 12-30-2005 4:52 AM Total Participants: 40 Total Posts: 230

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Author	Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 9 of 230 (318524) 12-31-2005 8:30 AM Reply to: Message 5 by ReverendDG 12-31-2005 12:56 AM there was death before the fall, if you define plants as life, I've had people dismiss plants as being alive, but what are plants then some odd living yet non-living thing? I have seen a creationist comment suggesting that only fruits, seeds and vegetative growth were eaten prior to the fall. Thus the plant would not be killed. Hmm, it is a bit strange to not consider seeds to be alive, particularly when many creationists say that a human embryo is a living baby. This message is a reply to:   Message 5 by ReverendDG, posted 12-31-2005 12:56 AM   ReverendDG has responded Replies to this message:   Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 12-31-2005 10:57 AM   Message 15 by ReverendDG, posted 12-31-2005 3:49 PM
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 18 of 230 (318533) 12-31-2005 6:10 PM Reply to: Message 17 by Faith 12-31-2005 5:57 PM Re: A few scripture references Where would I get my beliefs exxcept from the Bible? I would hope that you get most of them by looking around and seeing the way the world really is. If the way you get your beliefs is not as I just suggested, then it won't be long before you walk in front of a truck (or bus or car) and you will not be long in this world. This message is a reply to:   Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 5:57 PM   Faith has not yet responded
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 35 of 230 (318550) 01-01-2006 5:11 PM Reply to: Message 32 by randman 01-01-2006 4:47 PM Re: A few scripture references randman writes: Adam immediately spiritually died as was indicated by his awareness of his sin (nakedness), ... I'm not sure how to make sense of that. Are you saying that knowledge = spiritual death? Is that why some creationists work so hard at being ignorant :D This message is a reply to:   Message 32 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 4:47 PM   randman has responded Replies to this message:   Message 36 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 5:27 PM   Message 39 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-01-2006 6:18 PM
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 40 of 230 (318555) 01-01-2006 6:26 PM Reply to: Message 39 by Mr. Ex Nihilo 01-01-2006 6:18 PM Re: A few scripture references quote: Ecclesiastes 1:18 writes: For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Is grief the same thing as spiritual death? This message is a reply to:   Message 39 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-01-2006 6:18 PM   Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded Replies to this message:   Message 42 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-01-2006 8:18 PM
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 188 of 230 (318703) 02-15-2006 12:11 PM Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill 02-15-2006 7:46 AM Re: Parent's Perrogative God says "Ooops. I shouldn't have said that Adam is going to die today. Hmmm. Now how do I get out of this one?" C'mon guys. Can you conceive a Being Whose knowledge and wisdom is infinite? What about the flood story, where God apparently says "Oops! I shouldn't have done that. I will invent the rainbow as a sign that I will never do it again." This message is a reply to:   Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM   jaywill has responded Replies to this message:   Message 191 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 12:59 PM
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 206 of 230 (318721) 02-17-2006 11:13 AM Reply to: Message 205 by iano 02-17-2006 8:13 AM Re: Dilemma The discussion revolves around whether there was death before the fall or not. We are not told directly that there was or that there wasn't so we try to garner from evidence as to what was the case. A common sense reading of the story is that the plants and animals were all pretty much similar to what we see today. But the Garden of Eden was a special place, so perhaps there was no death inside the garden. This message is a reply to:   Message 205 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 8:13 AM   iano has responded Replies to this message:   Message 207 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 6:20 PM
nwr Member Posts: 3769 From: Geneva, Illinois Registered: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 3.9 Normal Thread Display	Message 213 of 230 (318728) 02-18-2006 1:46 PM Reply to: Message 207 by iano 02-17-2006 6:20 PM Re: Dilemma The story of the bible is about mans fall and Gods plan to enable restoration back to that which was lost. Included in that is eternal life - a restoration of that intended from the beginning I don't see much in the way of a biblical basis for your reading of the story. IMO the story is intended as an explanation of what distinguishes humans from other animals. In a way, it is a recognition that we are animals, just like all of the others -- you could see that as consistent with evolution. However, we seem to be different, something that some people use claim that we are conscious but other animals are not. The eating of the fruit of the tree, to confer knowledge of good and evil, is the explanation for this distinction between us and other animals. The suffering of pain in childbirth is one of the costs that we are said to pay because of being conscious. This message is a reply to:   Message 207 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 6:20 PM   iano has not yet responded

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