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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 215 (165818)
12-07-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Swift
12-07-2004 1:30 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Jesus was God and sacrificed himself so that we might belive in him.
can god die? is god mortal? these are dangerous claims. also, if jesus is god, why does address god as "father?" or address god at all?
The Gospel of John says that he came to save the world and not condeme it.
yet a few posts above you offered condemnations.
David sinned
yet according to the bible, david is still perfect and righteous in the eyes of god. which book are you going to disregard? kings or romans? do you really believe ALL of the bible? can you?
When he was dying on the cross he even prayed for the people crucifiing him.
and yet john, as well as the writings of paul condemn judaism. even matthew has hints of it, but none as fully blown as john.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-07-2004 01:51 AM

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 Message 15 by Swift, posted 12-07-2004 1:30 AM Swift has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 17 of 215 (165827)
12-07-2004 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Swift
12-07-2004 1:30 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Welcome,Swift. If you care to stroll around the other threads, you will find quoting propaganda gets short shrift here. If there were such a thing as the Atheist`s Bible, would you accept as evidence, me quoting from it? Thus, you have to prove your point by dissecting the topic and backing it up with external evidence or convincing argument. This business of merely quoting scripture (even in a scripture discussion) will earn you few points.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 215 (165840)
12-07-2004 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Nighttrain
12-07-2004 2:32 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
If there were such a thing as the Atheist`s Bible, would you accept as evidence, me quoting from it?
Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon ?
i find it far more fun to refute standard dogmatic views with verses from the bible they claim to accept.
although, on a similar point, dpardo still hasn't answered my quotes in another thread. he wanted to know why quoting the new testament to jews was unacceptable, and so i quoted the koran to him. i think i'll try the book of mormon next. and if that doesn't work, dianetics.
simply put, if you don't believe the book, someone quoting it isn't gonna work well to convince you.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-07-2004 03:30 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 215 (165846)
12-07-2004 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 12:52 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophia, what constitutes your definition of a Believer? How does a Christian be so defined in light of your stance on scriptural fallibility? Where then does the source of authority originate?
It is not in the intellect or the education, since no standard apart from human wisdom is upheld.
It is not in the Bible, if the Bible is an error prone literary adjunct.
Where is your source?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-07-2004 04:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 12:52 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 215 (165847)
12-07-2004 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Swift
12-07-2004 12:55 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
swift writes:
I do not say these things on my own accord but for he who sent me.
I am the voice one crying in the desert "Make a straight path for the lord to travel."
I have not debated anything but shown the wanderers there way home.Sort of like a map. Wich is seen as outdated but leads to treasures if one is willing to follow it.
As for what jesus would do... I think he would tell the truth wich i have done not debating anything. I will pray, and shout his name for his name sake.
Well praise God! I cannot fault a guy who claims to be doing the work of God. These guys are intellectuals who purport to be serious students of the Bible. I am unlearned to joust with them on THAT level, although I have always known a believer to be a TRUE believer by deferring any human wisdom to the overwhelming wisdom of the living Spirit of God! So in agreement with you, swift, let God be true and every man a liar! As to this topic and the Gospel of Juhn, I am not so inclined to think that a person must believe in the inerrancy of scripture to be saved. I may pose the question to Arachnophilia: What must a person do to be saved in your belief? Does the action of deference to the Spirit apply? (I am slightly off topic, but I want to clear up the importance of John as Inerrant scripture vs John as fallible literature as it pertains to what constitutes a Believer.)
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-07-2004 04:13 AM

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 21 of 215 (165849)
12-07-2004 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-07-2004 4:11 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Hi, Pb. I guess isolating a Believer might be like nominating the length of a piece of string. Which branch, sect, group of Christianity do we inspect? Which of the variety of translations of the Bible do we call inerrant? Which interpretations of which Scriptures do we follow? Do we accept that interpretation of that version of that group as inerrent? Or do we do our own scholarship to see if we are correctly informed? If your scholarship makes you question your group dogma, do you try to get the group to reassess or change their doctrine, or do you accept the group`s views and submerge your own? No good saying you are guided by God or the Holy Spirit, because that`s what every other splinter group claims, and different views can`t all be right.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 215 (165852)
12-07-2004 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
12-04-2004 11:45 AM


Since the originator of this thread requested accuracy and inerrancy, my post will be constructed in that vein.
The author of the Book of John is unknown. By tradition it is considered to be written by the apostle John.
If the book was written by John the apostle, then as a disciple and a Jew, who was supposedly witness to the transfiguration of Jesus (Mark 9:2-8, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 9:28-36), he should not have made the following mistakes:
John 9:19-22
...22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. Only after the institution of Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions reworded to include Christians (Nazarenes) were the Christians not welcome in the synagogues.
Excerpt from "A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson 1987
The collapse of the Jewish--Christian church after 70 AD and the triumph of Hellenistic Christianity led the Jews, in turn, to castigate the Christians. ...Under the rule of Raban Gamaliel II, the Twelfth Benediction or Birkat ha-Minim (Benediction concerning heretics) was recast to apply to Christians and this seems to have been the point at which the remaining Jewish followers of Christ were turned out of the synagogue.
The author of John uses wording that presents Jesus as non-Jewish.
John 8:17
"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
In the synoptics Jesus did not distance himself from Jewish Law. The statement made in 10:34 is from Psalm 82 which is not part of the Law or Torah.
In the synoptics Jesus keeps his messiahship a secret, but not so in John.
John 7:53-8:11 (The woman accused of adultery) is not included in older manuscripts. Evidence that the book has probably been altered.
Given these and other discrepancies, I personally consider the Book of John to be an unreliable source as to the character and teachings of Jesus.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 215 (165868)
12-07-2004 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
12-07-2004 4:01 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophia, what constitutes your definition of a Believer?
faith in the existance of god, and belief in his son jesus christ.
How does a Christian be so defined in light of your stance on scriptural fallibility?
i worship a god, not a book.
Where then does the source of authority originate?
authority is falsely placed on the bible. do we need an authoritative book to believe in god? i don't see why there is any need for authority, at all. if you believe it, you believe it. if you don't, you don't. where does the book come in?
It is not in the Bible, if the Bible is an error prone literary adjunct.
Where is your source?
god. christianity is a personal relationship with god, right?
look, in some regards i believe the book of john. there is greater truth to it, and it's message is very poetic and powerful. i just feel that it is a very flawed representation of christ. any idiot can pick up a bible and go "duh this doesn't make sense, these stories all contradict each other." i can point out LOTS of them off the top of my head.
people have been doing this for thousands of years. how has faith continued to exist in spite of it? claiming that the bible is an infallible and reliable source is just plain wrong, but that doesn't mean we have to disregard ALL of it. it's not an all or nothing game; this idea perpetrated by the fundamentalist church has possible done more damage in recent years than any other.
look, genesis 1 and 2 may completely contradict each other. people have known this forever. both stories can't be literally true, and one has to be wrong. but even if they're both wrong (and they are) they both still contain a greater truth: there is some part of god in us. the trick to the bible is to look for those truths, not nitpick the details.

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 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-07-2004 4:01 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 12-07-2004 10:10 AM arachnophilia has replied
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 24 of 215 (165870)
12-07-2004 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 10:06 AM


Applause from the crowd.
You know, I'm an Atheist, but I feel like standing up and clapping after that speech.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 10:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 215 (165894)
12-07-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
12-07-2004 10:10 AM


Re: Applause from the crowd.
*bows*
as a side not (added by edit), i think it's important to note why i study the inconsistencies and errors in the bible, as a believer. i find that it's useful to know and understand how much leeway or literalness i should read the text with, judging from the context and when it was written.
part of the reason i try to make people aware of the problems is so that people think about the text some more. the book of job may be from two different sources, and the poetry may contradict the story slightly, and it's written MUCH later than it's set, but it tells us something important. it's good to get the details out of the way so we can focus on the message, the reason behind the writing. i think it's much more interesting and meaningful to read and understand these books as literature, instead of just following along in church.
it's only when i disagree with the book on an idealogical basis that i choose to completely disregard it. such is the case with john and paul's letters. it's not that there are contradictions, but that they insult my faith.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-07-2004 12:20 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 215 (165939)
12-07-2004 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 12:09 PM


Re: Applause from the crowd.
Thanks for opening up a bit. I always believe that the importance of the Bible is not the book itself, but the person within and behind the book. For those who believe in scriptural inerrancy, the person of God guided the authors. For others, like you, the person of god is evident in scripture and the person of God is alive and real to you. You need to be humble to explain Him, and I appreciate the fact that you did so by being honest. God lives in Heaven and He also lives within those who believe in Him. By showing each other our inner heart and soul instead of mere intellectual dualing, we allow God to shine through us. Keep up the scholarship that you have, Arachnophilia! I see the person behind the passion, and the author and finisher of your faith involved in the details!
==================================================================
as for John, I see the passion of a young man who loved Jesus in a deeper way than the other Disciples. I see a young author who knew the passion of Jesus and who knew the God behind the passion, working through Jesus to reach humanity.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-07-2004 02:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 215 (165949)
12-07-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 12:47 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia,
You quoted Genesis 6:9:
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
You quoted this in response to Swift's statement that no one can be perfect.
You have misunderstood what is meant by "perfect" in Genesis 6:9. It does not mean "sinless" as was implied by Swift.
Indeed David's heart was "perfect" with God but he was not sinless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 12:47 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 4:05 PM dpardo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 215 (165958)
12-07-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by dpardo
12-07-2004 3:42 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
don't ever claim to be a literalist. swift didn't say "sinless" he said "perfect." genesis calls noah "perfect."
i believe you'll find the other quotes follow suit.
You have misunderstood what is meant by "perfect" in Genesis 6:9.
actually, i haven't. noah is just and upright and without blame. when this word is applied to job, it HAS to mean sinless: if job has sinned then god's curses are just punishment. but the point of the story is that he has not sinned.
i think you and swift have misunderstood something about god: he is a forgiving and understanding god. asa sins, but is called perfect. david sins, but is called perfect. noah and job are perfect. god is not this cruel overlord that you make him out to be, striking us down for our tiniest faults. he made us, with those faults, and loves and forgives us in spite of them.
one of the messages of job is that even job is perfect and righteous, he cannot even begin to compare to god. but god does not expect us to be gods, does he?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by dpardo, posted 12-07-2004 3:42 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by dpardo, posted 12-07-2004 4:42 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 215 (165970)
12-07-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 4:05 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
don't ever claim to be a literalist. swift didn't say "sinless" he said "perfect." genesis calls noah "perfect."
I won't if you won't...
I didn't say he said "sinless", I said he implied "sinless".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 4:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 215 (165972)
12-07-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by purpledawn
12-07-2004 7:09 AM


Purpledawn writes:
If the book was written by John the apostle, then as a disciple and a Jew, who was supposedly witness to the transfiguration of Jesus (Mark 9:2-8, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 9:28-36), he should not have made the following mistakes:
John 9:19-22
...22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. Only after the institution of Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions reworded to include Christians (Nazarenes) were the Christians not welcome in the synagogues.
I have already pointed out to you, in another thread, that you are equating, erroneously, following Christ with acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ.
Indeed many people followed Jesus around and listened to his teachings but not all of them acknowledged (especially publicly) that he was the Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 12-07-2004 7:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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