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Author Topic:   Global Futurism. A discussion of impending issues
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 181 of 241 (446276)
01-05-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by jar
01-05-2008 11:00 AM


Re: reality check.
quote:
Yet another strawman. Stop misrepresenting my position.
Can you ever debate honestly?
It's amazing how quickly you people turn on people who don't share a your narrow views. You claimed that our systems of hair trigger have prevented nuclear war, that they 'worked.' That is simply false as the Russians and the US disobeyed standard procedure and ignored these systems numerous times when they would have made us launch nuclear attacks, I've already cited numerous occasions where this happened. Therefore, unless I am mistaken, you are against the removal of hair trigger. Until you clarify, I can only assume that you believe having weapons on hair trigger alert is safer then not having any weapons period.
Hence why I asked you to clarify that position as it appears to be completely insane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 11:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 2:47 PM obvious Child has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 241 (446279)
01-05-2008 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by obvious Child
01-05-2008 2:42 PM


Re: reality check.
You have misrepresented my position.
I have little use for those who must rely on misrepresentation.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 2:42 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 2:58 PM jar has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 183 of 241 (446289)
01-05-2008 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jar
01-05-2008 2:47 PM


Re: reality check.
Then what is your position then?
You stated in post 166 this:
quote:
The systems worked and the Ruskies did not launch.
End of case.
But the systems DID not work, what worked was the ethics and logic of the various commanding officers who realized it was a computer glitch or not a incoming missile (Mucat 1985 for example). The system of procedures and computers dictated a launch. And even more frightening, there are several instances where this happened on the US side as well.
It's not the end of case. Now seeing how you are not agreeing with me for a removal of hair trigger and seemingly fighting that argument every step, how am I not to reasonably assume you are not for hair trigger alert?
I realize you people do not like being wrong, but think about the situation!
Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 2:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 3:02 PM obvious Child has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 241 (446293)
01-05-2008 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by obvious Child
01-05-2008 2:58 PM


Re: reality check.
My position is that we identify where possible anyone who believes in End Time prophecy and try to make sure that they are not in a position of authority.
As to nuclear weapons, I think they are pretty much worthless as a Nation State resource.
As to being wrong, destroying or decentralizing nuclear weapons is a separate issue to determining the sanity of those in authority.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 2:58 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 3:13 PM jar has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 185 of 241 (446298)
01-05-2008 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
01-05-2008 3:02 PM


Re: reality check.
quote:
My position is that we identify where possible anyone who believes in End Time prophecy and try to make sure that they are not in a position of authority.
That is your old position. We are not discussing that. I'm talking about what you said in post 166. But let's regress, and I agree, we shouldn't be electing those people, but that's very difficult to figure out who's faking, who's hiding it and who's real about it, as opposed to simply taking away their toys. A 5 year old can cause some damage. A 5 year old with a hammer can cause a lot more. Therefore we take away their hammer.
quote:
As to nuclear weapons, I think they are pretty much worthless as a Nation State resource.
For the most part. North Korea would be a exception, but you're more or less correct.
quote:
As to being wrong, destroying or decentralizing nuclear weapons is a separate issue to determining the sanity of those in authority.
But isn't the whole goal to reduce or mitigate overall threats to the world? And given the End Times prophecy and your belief on self fulfillment, wouldn't nukes play a part in bringing it about for such a believer? So, what kind of damage could a in power end times believer do without weapons of mass destruction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 3:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 3:20 PM obvious Child has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 241 (446302)
01-05-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by obvious Child
01-05-2008 3:13 PM


Re: reality check.
So, what kind of damage could a in power end times believer do without weapons of mass destruction?
Use other resources such as chemical, biological, economic or conventional weapons.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 3:13 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 3:34 PM jar has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 187 of 241 (446308)
01-05-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
01-05-2008 3:20 PM


Re: reality check.
quote:
Use other resources such as chemical, biological, economic or conventional weapons.
Alright, short of biological and a full reliance of big blu-s, the damage the rest can do just pales in comparison. Plus the US has entered into a binding chemical weapons convention, and while the biological weapons convention seriously needs work, it's a start. I realize this example is a cliche, but bear with me. George Lucas's Star wars character of Senator Palpatine who eventually seized power was in the lore, a public character very different from who he turned out to be. He just proves that is may be impossible or extremely difficult to determine who is a threat. Dubya himself was a very different character (aside from financially) as a governor then as a president.
And seeing how the American public is generally a bunch of idiots as evident by the past 2 election's extremely poor choices in candidates, even from the caucuses, it seems evident that we are unable to determine who is such a shadow threat. Therefore, as your solution seems rather unrealistic especially in the context of how Americans view their political system (severe lack of critical thinking), we should therefore rely on something else, such as a removal of chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear weapons? It's extremely difficult to cause world wide damage with just conventional weapons.
And economic weapons are usually tempered by opposing factions, even today we see this with China and Russia preventing serious sanctions on Iran.
Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 01-05-2008 3:20 PM jar has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 188 of 241 (446334)
01-05-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by obvious Child
01-05-2008 1:22 AM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
Have you any intentions of continuing our discussion?
If so, please provide a list of unanswered questions so that I may answer them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 1:22 AM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 8:13 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 189 of 241 (446350)
01-05-2008 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by molbiogirl
01-05-2008 6:05 PM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
Okay, Dubya's cheerleader, what is your plan?
Since you are obviously against the removal of hair trigger weapons, what is your realistic plan? Or do you just bitch and have no solutions?
And seeing how you believe the shield will work, why is that every test we conduct is pre-scheduled and hardly represents anything close to a real flight plan from China, NK or Russia?
Plus since you believe the shield is so worthwhile, could you care to explain how it will deal with a thousand mylar balloons?
How do you argue without understanding the subject? Furthermore, do you believe you are even remotely acting like an adult?
A faulty computer chip almost ended the world as we know it and you're against going virtual?
Care to explain your seemingly INSANE position?
And getting back to the crazy religious whackjob, wouldn't REMOVING weapons from active and ready status decrease the damage they could do?
And that's just TWO posts
You won't answer questions for a simple reason: you're here to discuss this subject with yourself. And you didn't ask those questions, thus you won't answer them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by molbiogirl, posted 01-05-2008 6:05 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by molbiogirl, posted 01-05-2008 9:23 PM obvious Child has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 190 of 241 (446357)
01-05-2008 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by obvious Child
01-05-2008 8:13 PM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
Please list all the question that I have left unanswered so that I might answer them.
I want to put this "issue" of unanswered questions to rest.
It's dragged on long enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by obvious Child, posted 01-05-2008 8:13 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by obvious Child, posted 01-08-2008 7:20 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 241 (446378)
01-06-2008 12:13 AM


Obvious Child, there has been a complaint about your posting conduct since AdminPD's warning in the moderation thread . I agree that you need to attend to the warning so as to keep the peace. Failure to comply will result in suspension.
Do not respond in this thread.

For ideological balance on the EvC admin team as a Biblical creationist.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
EvC Forum: General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 13.0
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Other useful links:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 192 of 241 (447300)
01-08-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by molbiogirl
01-05-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
quote:
I want to put this "issue" of unanswered questions to rest.
It's dragged on long enough.
Indeed it has dragged on. Furthermore, the long list of issues that I've made that have been deliberately ignored is just as long.
There is no point in listing them all when you refuse to even address a tiny portion.
If a specific handle has a obvious problem answering one question, it is safe to assume that the handle will have a problem answering many questions. Furthermore, numerous deliberate incidents of avoiding questions can only conclude, specifically after such handle has been directly asked to answer specific questions, that such a handle will outright refuse or pretend such questions do not exist. Therefore, on the basis of a long thread of deliberate acts to avoid answering often very simple questions, that it is futile to even bother to fulfill a request.
I do find it amusing that you reported me for doing what you wanted me to do.
Reporting such things to mods is like running to the teacher because someone pushed you down.
Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by molbiogirl, posted 01-05-2008 9:23 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by molbiogirl, posted 01-08-2008 10:16 PM obvious Child has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 193 of 241 (447339)
01-08-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by obvious Child
01-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
There is no point in listing them all when you refuse to even address a tiny portion.
If I answer bit by bit, I am reduced to repeatedly badgering you for yet another portion of the list. By asking you to provide the entire list at once, I am taking away your favorite cudgel.
In your absence, I have written a VERY long response to some of your questions. But before I post anything, I would like the list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by obvious Child, posted 01-08-2008 7:20 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by obvious Child, posted 01-09-2008 7:32 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 194 of 241 (447565)
01-09-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by molbiogirl
01-08-2008 10:16 PM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
I'm not stupid.
I see how you operate. I'm not falling for that trick.
If you cannot answer a single simple question, you will not answer complex questions. Furthermore, as I cited before, in this thread, countless acts of deliberate avoiding even to the point of pretending the questions simply didn't exist are rampant on your part.
This threads holds no value when your handle refuses to answer the most basic of simple questions.
Argue with yourself.
Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by molbiogirl, posted 01-08-2008 10:16 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by molbiogirl, posted 01-09-2008 8:13 PM obvious Child has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 195 of 241 (447577)
01-09-2008 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by obvious Child
01-09-2008 7:32 PM


Re: Stop Ignoring Questions
I'm not stupid.
I never said you were stupid. I do think, however, that you are lazy.
Message 166 writes:
And it's disturbing that I have to check my previous post to see how much you ignored.
And looking for a way out.
I see how you operate. I'm not falling for that trick.
It's no trick.
You have repeatedly asserted that I have not answered questions.
Message 163 writes:
And you haven't answered the question. Do you or do you not agree with what I said?
Message 166 writes:
And it's disturbing that I have to check my previous post to see how much you ignored.
Message 176 writes:
Furthermore, why should I answer anything you ask when you have gone out of your way to ignore virtually every question I have asked you?
Message 192 writes:
Indeed it has dragged on. Furthermore, the long list of issues that I've made that have been deliberately ignored is just as long.
Message 194 writes:
Furthermore, as I cited before, in this thread, countless acts of deliberate avoiding even to the point of pretending the questions simply didn't exist are rampant on your part.
No. After I made a detailed posting re: missile defense, you gave up.
Message 174.
You just repeated that post when I again asked what questions I may have left unanswered.
Message 189.
However, in Message 163, you were already accusing me of not answering questions. Which means, your repetition of Message 174 is not going to do me much good. I again asked that you provide a list of unanswered questions.
You repeated, again, Message 174.
What those unanswered questions prior to Message 163 may be, I don't know. Only you know.
Even if I answer the questions in Message 174, you will continue to whine that I never answer questions.
In lieu of answering questions I can't possibly divine, here is the missile defense post I composed in your absence.
Airborne Laser (ABL)
ABL is a chemical oxygen iodine laser (COIL) mounted inside a Boeing 747-400F. It is designed to destroy tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs).
The Airborne Laser Laboratory, a less-powerful Boeing prototype, shot down several missiles in the 1980s. The COIL has been fired more than 70 times since 2004. Further testing of the ABL began in 2007 and will continue until 2009. A fleet of seven ABLs should be flying operational missions by 2009.
Ancile
http://www.militaryaviation.eu/transporter/Boeing/B747.htm
The current NMD system consists primarily of ground based interceptor missiles and radar in Alaska which would intercept incoming warheads in space. About 100 interceptor missiles are operational. Since North Korea is perceived to be the earliest missile threat, they are aimed at countering tens of warheads, with either simple or no countermeasures.
Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser (MTHEL)
In 2004, the system shot down multiple mortar rounds, demonstrating potential its battlefield application for to protection against common threats. The test represented actual mortar threat scenarios. Targets were intercepted by the THEL testbed and destroyed; both single mortar rounds and salvo were tested.
MTHEL is capable of detecting, tracking, engaging, and defeating Rockets/Artillery/Mortars (RAM), cruise missiles, short-range ballistic missiles, and unmanned aerial vehicles.
The system could easily evolve into a laser-based air defense system for U.S. government agencies and allies that require near-term defense against short-range ballistic missiles, short- and long-range rockets, artillery shells, mortars, unmanned aerial vehicles and cruise missiles.
Page Not Found - Defense Update:
Combat effectiveness of newer systems against tactical ballistic missiles are very high, as the Patriot PAC-3 had a 100% success rate in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Arrow Ballistic Missile Defense System
In 2004, the Arrow was launched against a Scud. The experiment was a success -- the Arrow destroyed the Scud with a direct hit. In 2005 & 2007 the system was successfully deployed in a test against a Shahab-3.
There have been over 2 dozen tests since 2001. By 2007, the Aegis had successfully intercepted its 8 out of 10. 29 successful intercepts (for all MDA systems) since 2001.
Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System
In June 22, 2007, the USS Decatur, using Aegis successfully performed a "Hit To Kill" intercept of a separating, medium range, ballistic missile.
In December 2007, the JDS Kongo successfully intercepted a ballistic missile with the Aegis.
---
None of these systems, none of these tests, is addressed by the 2 links you provided.
NMD: Test Failures and Technology Development
Global Security

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by obvious Child, posted 01-09-2008 7:32 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by obvious Child, posted 01-10-2008 3:06 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
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