Is this Bible verse about believers and poison to be taken literally?

I'm simply trying to explain that God has REASONS for what He does. It's His call, not ours. Scripture is pretty clear that scoffers are not in God's favor, but then He has mercy upon whomever He will have mercy and that may include scoffers. All of us are sinners when He changes our views.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2005 01:03 AM

When God is thought of in those terms it's impossible to know Him. You could loosely base his morals and opinions on the time period that involved Jesus, but you're defining him as a "thinking" entity in constant reanalysis of his universe. Maybe he is different from the God of biblical times -- maybe he is drastically different, maybe he has a slightly different view of the outcome. Maybe he's gone altogether, he left and went to a different brane in M Theory (heh, why not pull together more philosophy while we're at it) and has created a new universe since the whole perfect sin-free world deal didn't work out in this one.I think your description adds a certain humanizing reason to God. I'm not sure how that affects one's faith, because I do not subscribe to it, personally.Imagine I had a train set with a little city and all (one of those highly complex ones, like at the Pittsburgh science museum). If it is my universe, my opinion of that world would evolve over time. Running trains in the same old way is fun for a while, but now and then you like to smash them together, or do random unrelated activities.The philosophy that stems from such a suggestion could be very interesting. (I would be interested in a thread specifically about it, perhaps.)

I'm simply struggling to put into words my understanding of the Bibical/traditional/orthodox view of God, to bring out aspects that are often ignored, but not anything actually new -- exactly the same God as ever.

Certainly God has reasons for what He does. We need to use the Bible as our window into what He wants and what we are required to do.The Bible says that God loves the world and wants all of us to be saved. That seems pretty clear cut and goes against the "He has mercy upon whomever He will..." statement you made. My impression of that statement is that God will make salvation availible to some as He sees fit (context of my message concerned salvation of unbelievers). Obviously, selective salvation by God (independent of the person's actions/desires) is in conflict with the Biblically stated fact that God wants all to come to Him. I don't think that is what you wanted to say unless you are a predeterminist. Then you will have to Biblically support this point of view. (off topic, though)On topic, you still need to Biblically support your position that the gifts and miracles from Mark 16:17 and 18 are for only particular types of unbelievers and not for those who, like Thomas, require physical evidence. You call them scoffers of God but they are not any worse scoffers than Thomas when he was told that Christ had risen.To me, those gifts and miracles would be better suited to convince the physical-evidence folks...but I'm not God.

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These powers will be GIVEN when danger occurs,

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Please quote from Mark where it says that these powers are given when danger occurs.See, in my reading of that passage, it mentions nothing of danger.It only mentions the signs as a way to show unbelievers that the Lord is with them.

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After the gospel was established the supernatural gifts were no longer needed. When they are needed He gives them.

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So, this means that we should be hearing reports of Christian missionaries able to heal people by the laying on of hands in places like Nigeria and other places in Africa where there are many dying of various illnesses, like AIDS. Certainly such a gift is desperately needed in those places, with so much death and suffering happening every day.BTW Faith, I don't think you ever let me know if I understand your definition of the word "literal" as it applies to Biblical ionterpretation.could you perhaps explain it to me again. I am still confused.

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The Bible says that God loves the world and wants all of us to be saved. That seems pretty clear cut and goes against the "He has mercy upon whomever He will..." statement you made.

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Statement *I* made you say?

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On topic, you still need to Biblically support your position that the gifts and miracles from Mark 16:17 and 18 are for only particular types of unbelievers and not for those who, like Thomas, require physical evidence.

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This was my inference from passages already provided, but I could add this one1Cr 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.which shows that at least the gift of tongues, mentioned in Mark 16, was given for unbelievers, and this was demonstrated at Pentecost when that gift fell upon the disciples in front of the great crowd of Jews from all over the Roman Empire, who were in Jerusalem for that holiday, as they all heard God's word spoken in their own language by people who did not know those languages.and my remark about *which* unbelievers is to explain why we don't see them in the West today. It seems a reasonable conjecture based on the facts already presented. The idea is that God provided the gifts in order to be a witness to the world of the divine source of the gospel. This seems to be shown in the first place in the context of Jesus' statement in Mark 16, that is, the Great Commission to take the gospel into all the world, as well as the fact that the supernatural gifts gradually died out in the churches as the gospel became established.

They are given for the sake of the gospel, though, not just to deal with suffering as such. However, I'm sure there are some miracles going on in places where the gospel is being heard. Such events are reported in passing in most missionary reports I've read, not emphasized. Again, I didn't use the word "literally," you did, and then I said it describes better how you look at the verse -- you decide yourself what it means -- you are very very sure that it means what it looks to you to mean on the face of it, and you scorn what it has traditionally been understood to mean just because it doesn't read that way to you "literally." You keep insisting that it *obviously* means Christians should show these gifts now or it's phony. So I've been showing you why your own "literal" reading is not correct, how the gifts were not given to all, and were given in the context of the spreading of the early church and gradually disappeared as the gospel became established. Again, I didn't use the word, you did, supposedly about what I believe, so I said no, it applies better to what you are saying, as you leave out the whole context of the Bible.

Please quote from Mark where it says that these powers are given when danger occurs.See, in my reading of that passage, it mentions nothing of danger.It only mentions the signs as a way to show unbelievers that the Lord is with them.
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The proof is in the fulfillment, as when Paul was bitten with the snake and was not harmed.

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Pecos George is correct. You are doing the twisting, and in a very persistent, even belligerent way. Jesus said these signs shall FOLLOW them. It's a prediction of God's powers that will attend the preaching of the gospel in the world. These powers will be GIVEN when danger occurs, but we are NEVER to do something to put ourselves in danger, aas Jesus himself said back to the devil when the devil told him to prove He was the Son of God by jumping off a high building -- can't do that, that is tempting God. So Jesus would never teach anyone to tempt God by putting himself in danger. Unless of course you want to call Him a hypocrite, and maybe you do by the sound of it.

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Anyway, those signs DID follow those who spread the gospel, as already proved by various postings on this thread. Paul survived the bite of a deadly snake -- he didn't seek out the snake, the snake just bit him. And the first Christians had the various supernatural gifts distributed among them that Jesus says will follow the believers in Mark 16.

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Hi, Faith.
Thought I might check in to see how you are getting on.
I don't mind explaining things, until it becomes clear that no explanation will be/can be accepted. (Schraffie did agree to the metaphor).
It's not that difficult to tell when obtuse is played the trump, or when it is natural. Since most of the people here are not really obtuse, they are deliberately playing obtuse as a strategy.
Tormenting the target they pick, turns them on, much like a naughty boy might torment a cat.
Your explanation cannot be accepted, because that would stop the fun. No rubbing hands together, grinning in the mirror.....'geez, I've put it to that Christian jerk today"......You are talking to people who have already made it abundantly clear that they have no use for your beliefs. They are disrespectful, taunting, angry, uncharitable, without natural affection for their fellow-man.
You got the picture, don't you?
George

Yeah George, I got the picture a long time ago, but I'm trying to be charitable and assume obtuseness instead of mere malice and learn to exercise EXTREME patience instead of blowing up all the time. Thanks for looking in. I need the sanity break from time to time.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2005 02:36 PM

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.......reports of Christian missionaries able to heal people by the laying on of hands......

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The Great Physician, Schraffie, has all kinds of physicians who go healing to those places, using their hands........using what they have learned by diligent study of the materials extant, daily adding more information. We have different means these days to apply healing hands. Knowledge increases.....has increased...where the erstwhile means are no longer necessary, abilities are lost to be regained some other way, are supplanted by a wonderful thing called science.I think Bennie Hinn can do some 'stuff'. He makes me laugh.Do you really want to participate in the ridicule of the Christ?

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Yeah George, I got the picture a long time ago, but I'm trying to be charitable and assume obtuseness instead of mere malice and learn to exercise EXTREME patience instead of blowing up all the time. Thanks for looking in. I need the sanity break from time to time.

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My brother, be what they understand. Which would be?
See ya later!
Maranatha!

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Yeah George, I got the picture a long time ago, but I'm trying to be charitable and assume obtuseness instead of mere malice and learn to exercise EXTREME patience instead of blowing up all the time.

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Well, that's refreshing.Now, if we saw that you were actually contrite and if we saw you ask forgiveness for the copious personal abuse you have heaped upon all of us, it would be truly impressive.Sincerely,The stupidest person at EvC

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The Great Physician, Schraffie, has all kinds of physicians who go healing to those places, using their hands using what they have learned by diligent study of the materials extant, daily adding more information. We have different means these days to apply healing hands.

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I agree that if you would like to use the liberal interpretation and say that the "laying on of hands" is the same as "using a scalpel with a hand", then it fits with what is really going on.But that is not what faith or others are saying is happening.OTOH, there are plenty of unbaptized, non-believing physicians who are "using their hands" in the way you describe and they are healing people, too.Does that mean that the healings accomplished by unbaptized unbelievers are "signs" that the word of the Lord is with them?

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Do you really want to participate in the ridicule of the Christ?

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I'm sure god doesn't have his feelings hurt like people do.Anyway, I am hardly ridiculing Christ. I am simply pointing out that if one takes Mark 16 at face value, it seems quite clear, and that I wanted people who say they take the Bible at face value to explain why we don't see a general trend of believers who can do these fantastic things.Not EVERY believer, regardless of what faith wants to think I think.A general trend.