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Author Topic:   Second Law of Thermodynamics
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 61 of 102 (283420)
02-02-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
3) There are no negentropy events in the universe which make use of unrectified, unconverted raw radiant or in general electromagnetic energy absent a process to convert the energy into a usuable form. It is this transmission, conversion and rectification process which in obedience to SLOT results in huge entropy production to finance the local negentropy effects, LOCALLY.
4) In the beginning there were no metabolic, photosynthetic or other processes available to convert raw solar energy into a form suitable for overcoming the free energy deficit associated with the most simplistic formation of amino acids from monomers, polymers from monomeres, proteins,enzymes, DNA etc. The spontaneous formation of the chemical processes of photosynthesis and matabolism is so phantasmagorically impossible ... even evos don't believe that yet that is required to make evolution happen.
That is the biggest load of complicated balloney I have ever heard. There are tons of chemical and I am willing to bet organic chemical reactions that only require heat. You don't need photosynthesis to store the energy in chemical bonds. It happens all the time in chemistry 1 labs in high schools all over the world.
It is unfathomable that either sane, mildly educated, or truthful people actually put forth this argument anymore.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 62 of 102 (283424)
02-02-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
What a lot of words just to say you don't understand the Theory of Evolution!
With such a wealth of polysyllabic misunderstanding, it's hard to know where to start, but here's a fun field project:
Go check out some deep sea thermal vents.
Check out what you find there.
Ask them what they're eating--it ain't sunshine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Evopeach, posted 02-02-2006 11:45 AM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Evopeach, posted 02-02-2006 3:06 PM Omnivorous has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 102 (283429)
02-02-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Now I take my icebox unplug it from the socket , sit it out in my
yard in the hot hot summer sun. Does my beer get cooler or hotter?
The system is still an OPEN one, the suns energy is abundantly
available, the device is the same as before yet my beer gets hot, the
box gets hot and I get hot.
Yes. Although the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that your beer will, in a closed system, become colder as time goes on, the energy being pumped into the system by the sun increases the heat energy of your beer, making it warmer.
Congratulations. You've just ably demonstrated how energy introduced from an outside source renders the 2nd law moot.

"I fail to comprehend your indignation, sir. I've simply made the logical deduction that you are a liar."
-Spock

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 64 of 102 (283437)
02-02-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
01-29-2006 2:14 PM


Re: If no-one has said this before...
No, all planets around a star are using the energy from the star. We are using the energy of our sun. That mean, as a system, a planet is not a closed system, but as a solar system, to all intents and purposes, the solar system is 'enclosed'. (it realy isn't, but for practical matters, it is).
Life can exist because of the pumping of new energy into the system of the earth from the sun. The sun is 'gaining' entropy as it uses up the hydrogen in fusion.
All planets gain energy from their respective sun. It is just on earth, we know that this energy is being used to provide energy for life.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 65 of 102 (283441)
02-02-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
1) Your argument seems limited to abiogenesis and not evolutionary theory.
2) While you use a perhaps apt analogy between photosynthesis and a refrigerator... when discussing how energy may require an intricate mechanism to generate a result... you have not actually explained why 2LOT restricts a step-by-step buildup process toward chemical compounds/systems which are self-perpetuating and capable of more energy capture.
It might be of note that initial precursors to life may have nothing to do with photosynthesis at all. Some theories involve deepsea vent environments.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 102 (283443)
02-02-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Yay! Evopeach is back!
quote:
Whats wrong... this senario satisifes every evolutionary constraint and assumption... a heat source available to an open system with everything it needs to operate in a negentropy fashion... yet it
fails miserably and completely.
Actually, it is not analogous to anything in any scenario or argument proposed by evolutionists. What your scenario demonstrates is that you don't really understand the arguments for evolution or for abiogenesis.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 67 of 102 (283445)
02-02-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jazzns
02-02-2006 12:04 PM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
That is the biggest load of complicated balloney I have ever heard.
If you enjoy a good slice of baloney, I suggest you browse through some of the earlier postings by Evopeach.

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 68 of 102 (283446)
02-02-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Evopeach writes:
There are no local negentropy events anywhere which are not locally financed or driven by companion directly coupled energy/heat/work flows which create entropy increases in their operation far exceeding the negentropy they finance.
ROTFL
There are negentropy events occurring all the time. Thermodynamics is a statistical theory. The increase in entropy is a statistical phenomenon. It simply says that, on the average, entropy increases. There can be localized random events that reduce entropy.
In the beginning there were no metabolic, photosynthetic or other processes available to convert raw solar energy into a form suitable for overcoming the free energy deficit associated with the most simplistic formation of amino acids from monomers, polymers from monomeres, proteins,enzymes, DNA etc.
This is parody, right? Surely you don't believe such nonsense.
Hurricane Katrina, last summer, was an example of what natural non-biological processes can produce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Evopeach, posted 02-02-2006 11:45 AM Evopeach has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 69 of 102 (283447)
02-02-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Evopeach writes:
COnclusios of a logical mind:
1) Without an intellligence based, designed energy transducing
process converting random solar energy into a usuable electrical form
no process can produce a negentropic effect.
This would be incorrect. First, transforming energy into electrical form is not necessary to do work. Second, many natural processes produce local reductions in entropy. For example, when the sun's energy drives a chemical reaction that results in energy being stored in chemical bonds, a local reduction in entropy occurs.
2) With such a process can product negentropy effects but those
effects will always be less in amount than the entropy produced by
the transducing and energy delivery process. It has nothing to do
with the etropy produced by the the sun.
3) The suns and any stars processes are very large entropy producers
which is why thermonuclear processes are irreversible, highly
inefficient and push the universe toward an inevitable equiblibrium
heat death followed by absolute zero.
Your terminology is very non-standard and probably open to misinterpretation. Entropy is not a product of a process but a quality or attribute of a system. Just as you would never say that a growing plant is producing size, you wouldn't say that an active process is producing entropy. You would instead say that growing plants increase in size and that active processes increase in entropy.
--Percy

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Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6613 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 70 of 102 (283448)
02-02-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jazzns
02-02-2006 12:04 PM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Stick to the subject. Heat energy may make or break chemical bonds depending on the free energy differences between reactants and products. Unfortunately for you every reaction of formation beyond diamers to monomers requires energy otherwise it doesn't go.
Dozens of reactions means nothing... the ones that enable life are the only ones that matter to this discussion.
You might also notice that amino acids in life processes that make up the proteins and enzymes that life is composed of and operates with and upon are mirror image forms that are entropically identical and there is no favored gradient. Yet only left hand forms make the life process amino acids and only right are in enzymes. There is absolutely so way of achieving this separation randomly or by any known natural means outside of intelligence guiding the process of separation. Then of course there is the ordering and sequencing of the amino acids to form the chains of amino acids that then fold into proteins to perform sprcific tasks dependent on the precision of the folding. No random process can account for the ordering and sequencing operations in the primal state.
I think this group is the crystal clear reason why we need NO Child Left Behind... brainwashed, unthinking sychophants of fairy-tale science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jazzns, posted 02-02-2006 12:04 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 71 of 102 (283451)
02-02-2006 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 2:25 PM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Unfortunately for you every reaction of formation beyond diamers to monomers requires energy otherwise it doesn't go.
There was a lot of volcanic energy available on the young earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Evopeach, posted 02-02-2006 2:25 PM Evopeach has not replied

Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6613 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 72 of 102 (283454)
02-02-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by crashfrog
02-02-2006 11:53 AM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Crashfrog,
The stupidity of talking about any crystal formation such as ice or snowflakes, etc. that has no complexity whatever, no information content, no codes but only mindless repeating chemical and physical bonds as a result of spontaneous free energy considerations when heat is removed from water by temperature gradients evidences again the complete lack of scientific understanding of the subject matter... typical Evo craptalk. The entropy change between the two states of 1) water surrounded by cold air and 2)ice surrounded by slightly warmer air is a net plus. If you dont think so there is no hope for your intellect.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 73 of 102 (283455)
02-02-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 2:54 PM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Wait, crystals aren't complex?
You must be defining "complexity" differently than the rest of us. When you say "complex", what exactly do you mean?
I notice that your only response to the argument, though, is to tell me how stupid I am. Sounds like you're the one in need of an education - in manners, as well as science.
How about you address the point? How is evolution, where allele frequencies change over time due to differential reproduction and mutational changes, a thermodynamically relevant process?

This message is a reply to:
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Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6613 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 74 of 102 (283456)
02-02-2006 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Omnivorous
02-02-2006 12:12 PM


Re: Evos Ignorance must be to them sublime
Thermal vents don't eat anything.. What an idiot.
Organisms there reply on a form of metabolism to get the energy they need. That to is a complex, non-spontaneous process which would never evolve from non-life.
I was of course to use both metabolism and photosynthesis in my prrevious work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Omnivorous, posted 02-02-2006 12:12 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 75 of 102 (283459)
02-02-2006 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Evopeach
02-02-2006 3:06 PM


Evopeach Suspended
Hi Evopeach,
These are from your recent messages. This is from Message 70:
I think this group is the crystal clear reason why we need NO Child Left Behind... brainwashed, unthinking sychophants of fairy-tale science.
This is from Message 72:
The stupidity...typical Evo craptalk...If you dont think so there is no hope for your intellect.
This is from Message 74:
What an idiot.
And this is from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.
You're also straying pretty far from the thread's topic of 2LOT, and the Forum Guidelines request that you stay on-topic:
  1. Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
Your privileges will be restored when I receive email from you to Admin indicating that you understand the Forum Guidelines and will follow them in the future.
This message has been edited by Admin, 02-02-2006 03:22 PM

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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