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Author | Topic: Gender and Humor | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Btw, I hate this lady. This lady is apparently too weak to live with the freedom of speech. She reduced herself to a child. "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
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Modulous Member Posts: 7799 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
And Channel 4 here in UK did one polling the tastes of a different country, this is a list by perceived skill at stand up:
quote: Just to show that it isn't a USA phenomenon. The female impersonators are almost as well represented as the actual women!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2941 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
The female impersonators are almost as well represented as the actual women! That's brilliant! I do have some issues with the list (other than not recognizing a few names). Carlin seems far down on the list, he should be within the first 5 IMO. And Demetri Martin and Emo Phillips should not be anywhere near a list, lol. But the US list had Gallahger so I guess we're even. The list has Hicks at #4 which I must agree with. The US list had him too far down. Thanks for sharing this, I'm going to look up the comics I don't recoginze. - Oni
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Modulous Member Posts: 7799 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The list has Hicks at #4 which I must agree with. The US list had him too far down. Well....I don't find Hicks at all funny :\ - he has moments where I smirk but it doesn't compare to even an unknown at a comedy club. But apparently I'm in a serious minority on that.
other than not recognizing a few names I laughed at the American list. A little home-bias is to be expected, but how many people on that list of Greatest Comics of all time are not US/Canadians? I don't recognise a lot of the names on yours so I can't be sure but it does look a little...myopic.
I'm going to look up the comics I don't recoginze. While I disagree with the placements, I basically agree with most of the appointees. There are some fantastic stand-ups listed, veritable paragons. With the occasional clanger. For what it's worth if you were tempted to see if Brits could put any decent female standups, I think they over-rated them all. Victoria Wood writes some funny songs, though witty and catchy songs about being a middle aged woman are difficult to relate to. Likewise, I enjoy Jo Brand just being Jo Brand because she is a smart and interesting person with a clever and fast sense of humour. But I don't rate her as a performer of prepared comedy at all since a huge amount of material is basically her pointing out in a variety of different ways that she is fat,old and ugly. And Jenny Eclair is just a gobshite.
And Demetri Martin and Emo Phillips should not be anywhere near a list, lol. I have no idea how Demetri Martin managed to show up on the UK radar...I've never seen his standup stuff. I'll try and find that bit of the show and explain what the talking heads were saying... As for Emo Philips, I have to say I have enjoyed some of his routines though I haven't seen anything original for a long time.
But the US list had Gallahger so I guess we're even. I looked up a picture to see if I recognized him - thought RAZD had taken up smashing fruit and closed the browser window. Fair play.
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Modulous writes:
Perhaps that reflects the difference between British humour and American humor.
I don't find Hicks at all funny :\ - he has moments where I smirk but it doesn't compare to even an unknown at a comedy club. But apparently I'm in a serious minority on that.
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
This is an example of how humour varies across culture. I'd say here in Ireland Billy Connelly would top the poll followed by Dara — Briain (surprise, surprise). Even if this isn't exactly correct I would imagine that a poll conducted here would basically be the British poll with the numbers rearranged. The only American comedian very popular here is Bill Hicks.
The simplest example is of the differences is number 12 on the American list:Jerry Seinfeld. I have never met anybody on this side of the Atlantic who finds him funny. Especially his "What's the deal with (insert item/body part/ad/job)?" stuff. A colleague of mine from Spain sometimes watches spanish comedy shows and it seems that they are way more focused on slapstick and I mean slapstick, it's guy slipping on a banana peel stuff. In fact she told me that in Spain sarcasm isn't seen as funny at all.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2941 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Well....I don't find Hicks at all funny :\ - he has moments where I smirk but it doesn't compare to even an unknown at a comedy club. But apparently I'm in a serious minority on that. Yeah a very small minority, but not uncommon to hear. I have a few friends who don't like him either...I should say, I had a few friends that didn't like him. They are no longer allowed to speak to me.
A little home-bias is to be expected, but how many people on that list of Greatest Comics of all time are not US/Canadians? Yeah I noticed that too. But except for the famous ones, the US isn't exposed to UK stand up until they make it on a stage in the US.
For what it's worth if you were tempted to see if Brits could put any decent female standups, I think they over-rated them all. Victoria Wood writes some funny songs, though witty and catchy songs about being a middle aged woman are difficult to relate to. Likewise, I enjoy Jo Brand just being Jo Brand because she is a smart and interesting person with a clever and fast sense of humour. But I don't rate her as a performer of prepared comedy at all since a huge amount of material is basically her pointing out in a variety of different ways that she is fat,old and ugly. And Jenny Eclair is just a gobshite.
I think we can have a consensus on women and stand up then. I would have to agree that most of the women in the US list were over-rated too. Even someone like Roseanne, who many consider funny, isn't as funny as many male stand up comics who didn't make the list. I think the list took into consideration their individual career achievements too, not just their stand up.
I have no idea how Demetri Martin managed to show up on the UK radar...I've never seen his standup stuff. He had one hour special that was ehh, ok I guess. He is in that alternative genre of stand up, like music acts or props. But funnier than him would have been Stephen Lynch. Even though I don't think Lynch should be on the list of "greatest" he is still a lot funnier than Demetri.
As for Emo Philips, I have to say I have enjoyed some of his routines though I haven't seen anything original for a long time. I did when I was younger, but I've seen him at clubs (he's still working, esp. in Vegas) and it's not what it used to be for me.
I looked up a picture to see if I recognized him - thought RAZD had taken up smashing fruit and closed the browser window. Fair play. Oh I hope RAZD sees this post, that was funny dude. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2941 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Perhaps that reflects the difference between British humour and American humor. The weird thing is, with someone like Hicks, it shouldn't. Hicks didn't become famous till he hit the UK and for the first time had his act aired on TV uncensored. The Brits LOVED him. That year he came back to the states and was voted Rolling Stone's comic of the year. Hicks even mocked that he was gone all year and won US comic of the year. If that was any indication of where he should take his career he should just be gone forever. Odd things is it took him dying to get the fame he has now. So his words were kinda true. He's gone forever and that blew up his career. - Oni
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3940 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Odd things is it took him dying to get the fame he has now. Now That I Am Dead Double click on title or highlight title and click play button to play. John French wrote the tune (and does lead vocals?) in the context of the French Frith Kaiser Thompson group. One of the lines is what I put in the subtitle. John French - Long time drummer with Captain Beefheart.Fred Frith - British avant-guitarist etc., co-founder of Henry Cow group. Henry Kaiser - US avant guitarist. Richard Thompson - Fairport Convention etc. Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add link to FFKT at allmusic.com.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined: |
Hi Mod,
I think it would be cool and most appropriate to create a survey and then analyse it in the EvC forum as sort of a class/community project. However, my single concern about this type of survey is not enough people, especially woman, would participate to reach an accurate conclusion. (that women might not care to take such a survey would be indicative of something [maybe perceived male biased questions?], but mostly would just indicate that the forum has so few female participants) Except for question #4, I think it would be best to include only closed-ended answers for ease of analysis. And I think a new thread would alert participants who may not be re-checking this thread. Per your and Straggler's suggestions, the survey might have the following questions: 1. What sex are you: M F 2. What type of humor do you most enjoy: LOWBROW HIGHBROW ALL NONE 3. How important do you rate your partner's humor: LOW MEDIUM HIGH 4. Why (one brief sentence please)? Can you or anyone else fine-tune/expand/compact these questions before we start? Any flaws I am missing? Thanks. drnstr Edited by dronester, : clarity
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5925 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
PS: Just watched Murder by Death last night. Watched it a million times, but I still manage to laugh. To be truthful, I had seen it when it first came out and was not very much amused. I had loved Neil Simon's earlier stage works redone to film (eg, "Odd Couple"), but his film screenplays just didn't work for me. Similarly, I only remember one scene from his play on Bogey detective films, The Cheap Detective, which I have likewise only seen once when it was first released. Searching on YouTube.com in order to share that one scene with a fellow Lindy hopper, that one scene is missing: Parody of the scene in Casablanca where the French and the Germans in Rick's American Cafe (also to be found in Zihuatanejo, next to Ixtapa, on the same block just north of Casa Tequila) hold a singing duel of their respective national anthems, Deutschland ber Alles and La Marseillaise. In Cheap Detective, the French and Germans do their thing as before, then the spotlight falls on Peter Falk and Eileen Brennen who harmonize beautifly acapella:
quote: Big Band ber Alles! It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing! T'ain't What You Do, It's the Way That You Do It Burn your leather on the floor, grab anybody's daughter! Edited by dwise1, : No reason given. Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre writes:
quote: Well, no, not really. It's a video of him getting upset that a bad joke was called out. The only point he had was that all topics have the potential for humor in them and we cannot declare something incapable of being made fun of. It might be extremely difficult to do so, but that's different from being absolute about it. Everything else was him being a sexist prick.
quote: Indeed, she didn't have much to contribute, either, but her attempted point is closer to reality: If you cross the line far enough and often enough, then whining that you were "only making a joke" doesn't fly. Actions have consequences. That you thought you were being funny and that some people may have laughed doesn't change the fact that sometimes, you're just being a jerk. This is hardly a free speech issue. Your right to tell a joke does not come with a right to an audience and someone else's nickel to promote it. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre writes:
quote: Here's a baker's dozen, just off the top of my head: Rita RudnerCathy Ladman Liz Winstead Caroline Rhea Suzanne Westenhoefer Rosie O'Donnell Margaret Cho Janeane Garafalo Susie Essman Lea Delaria Kathy Griffin Mo'Nique Lily Tomlin And you brought up Judy Gold, who slipped my mind. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2941 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Well, no, not really. It's a video of him getting upset that a bad joke was called out. Well, no, you're clearly listening with a bias if that's what you're opinion is. All he is saying is that her opinion of what "funny" is is irrelevant because she has nothing to do with the business of being funny. He could careless about a bad joke being called out, comics call out bad jokes all the time. We make fun of them. Have you ever watched the Joe Rogan vs Carlos Mencia video, where Rogan calls out Mencia for stealing? Just like in science, comics police themselves. So this had nothing to do with a joke. This had to do with that lady thinking she knows what's right and wrong to say on the air because she feels she can speak for the public.
Everything else was him being a sexist prick. He IS a sexist prick, watch his stand up. He has no problem being up front about it. But that has nothing to do with it. They asked HIM to be on the show not the other way around. They knew who they were bringing on to deal with that twat.
If you cross the line far enough and often enough, then whining that you were "only making a joke" doesn't fly. Cross the line? What line? Who declared there was a line? What if our lines differ, who's line do we go by? If you don't like what O & A say on THEIR show then change the station - especially on satellite. But more important, who the (curse word*) are you to say there is a line to be crossed? That's why jokes are considered "wrong to say," because people think their feelings mean something to the rest of us.
Your right to tell a joke does not come with a right to an audience and someone else's nickel to promote it. Agreed. But when the market speaks, as in the case with Howard Stern and Opie & Anthony, and people say they like the show and listen, then who are you or anyone else to think your opinion or taste in humor matters? This is a free speech issue within the context of O & A's show and them being free to do and say whatever they feel is funny on THEIR show over satellite radio. Her taste in humor, or anyone elses, shouldn't interfere with that. * waiting on the curse word ruling. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre responds to me:
quote: Ooh! We get to play armchair psychologist! Neato! Let's see what I can do: Well, no, you're clearly too close to the subject matter and are taking it personally, revealing your own misogyny. Now that you've had your chance to wave your dick at me....
quote: Which is a bullshit argument. As the audience, she has everything to do with the business of being funny. All performance is a connection with the audience and if the response is that you've laid a turd, then that's what you've done no matter how much you may believe in your work. That he has such disrespect for the audience is indicative of him being a poor performer. At no time during his rant did he defend the actual joke. As I said, his only point was that being absolute about a topic being "not funny" is wrong. But at no point could he describe why this particular instance wasn't an example of the misogyny that it was being accused of. His only defense was, "It's a joke!" as if that makes a difference.
quote: And the response to that is to show the specifics of why she got it wrong, not to throw a hissy fit and claim that she has no sense of humor. Look, I'm very sorry about his penis but until he can show why the joke isn't part of the problem, he's only showing that he's just as much of a sexist prick.
quote: Which means he has nothing to do with the business of being funny. He wants to be able to spout any vile thought that crosses his mind without there being any consequences to what he's saying. That isn't comedy. That's sociopathy. This isn't about being "safe" or "edgy" or "having the courage to go there." And I'm not even going to try and say that comedy is a "search for truth" (though that is a very good source of comedic material). This is about someone pretending that an act of cruelty is something other than that and accusing the object of that cruelty of "lacking a sense of humor." I'm reminded of DeGeneres' bit about kidding:
quote: Indeed. They asked a sexist prick to deal with an offended person. There wasn't going to be anything of substance said anywhere. This was nothing more than a media stunt by Fox News (no, really...Fox? Fox descended to being a whore for controversy?) They were both on the defensive and the host was doing everything he could to keep the discussion away from anything of value and on emotional outbursts as if that could help us understand what was going on. If they wanted to live up to their slogan of "We distort, you comply"...er..."We report, you decide," they would have actually talked about the specifics of the case, the context in which the joke was made, social ramifications, etc. Instead, they got an antagonizer and the victim. Yeah, that'll be fruitful. Clearly, she wasn't up to this discussion either. She didn't want to discuss the specifics but simply wanted to wag fingers with a holier-than-thou attitude. She did her side no service with her behaviour. She was out of her league and got walked all over. But that doesn't mean her failure was his win.
quote: The line of legitimizing bigotry.
quote: The audience. They're the final authority, after all.
quote: That would have been an interesting conversation to have. Too bad Fox decided that it would be better to join in the misogyny rather than discuss the question.
quote: There we go again with the idea that people should be free from consequences for their actions.
quote: Because I'm the audience. That's my job. And the fact that you don't understand that shows that you really don't understand what the job of a performer is. You have to take the audience into account. It's one of the big differences between recorded and live performances.
quote: And that you don't think they do shows you're not a comic. You're a narcissist. You want to be able to insult and denigrate people without any blowback. And if you truly didn't care what other people thought, then you wouldn't complain about their reaction. The fact that you're whining shows that you're not exactly being truthful.
quote: You mean they own Sirius/XM? Strange, I thought they were employees of the company. As such, they are subject to the regulations of their employer. The right to free speech does not come with the right to an audience and it certainly doesn't come with a right to someone else's money for your soapbox. If their actions on their show cause a problem for the company, the company has every right to respond, including firing them. This is the same pathetic whine Laura Schlessinger had when she was trying to get a television show: How dare the audience go to the sponsors to inform them of what she was saying! How dare the audience respond to what the performer says! How dare anybody point out that actions have consequences! You want the right to be a prick without facing the consequences of being one. Get used to disappointment.
quote: On the contrary: The audience has everything to do with it and will always interfere because that is the entire point behind performance: To connect to the audience. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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