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Member (Idle past 2973 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre responds to me:
quote: Because as a member of society, you have a part to play in how society determines things. But surely you can understand that governmental functioning is not the same as a stand-up performance and thus, different standards of behaviour are expected, yes? Let us stop playing dumb, shall we?
quote: Then why are you bothering to say anything at all in this thread? You don't control Park51, the people who are protesting, the governments of the city of New York, the state of New York, or the country of the United States, or the various builders, planners, and workmen involved in the project. Since you have absolutely no control and thus, "you don't care," why are you bothering to speak about it? Ah, that's because you do care. Shall we stop playing dumb.
quote: By explaining your philosophy regarding freedom of religion, which isn't a one-night stand in Brooklyn.
quote:quote: That isn't what you said before. You said, "If it's fair, everyone will be sad at some point." Really? Why? Why does everybody have to be sad in order for it to be fair?
quote:quote: You tell me. You're the one saying that everybody is going to be sad.
quote: What makes you think they didn't consider Christians before showing that episode?
quote: Now, here's the big part: Why? Can you explain your reasonings that brought you to this conclusion? Is there some legal framework you're drawing from? Use your words, onifre. I know why I came to that conclusion, but I don't know why you did because you keep refusing to elucidate your reasonings despite repeated requests for you to do so.
quote: (*chuckle*) This from the person who brought up "censored on TV" in the first place. If you cannot understand how your own example relates to the matter at hand, then why did you bring it up?
quote: Of course...you haven't done your homework, have no idea who you're talking about, and now that you've been called out on it, you're going to pretend that it doesn't matter.
quote: So who are they? I am not here to do your homework for you, especially since you're the one who brought it up. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
Yes, those idols. Not images of Mohammad. Also, worshipping an idol, and drawing a picture are two different things entirely.
Oh, Huntard, there are some very powerful historical reasons for Islam's distaste of these things. In its infancy Islam was tolerant of pagans and polytheism. Idols were not for them since this was too much like praying to man-made stone things in place of God, but they let the pagans do their thing. Then Muhammad become successful with is message. It begins with Muhammad's fleeing from Mecca to Medina when the Idol Merchants started killing all his followers. They controlled Mecca at that time and saw Muhammad's teachings (monotheist) as cutting into their "trade." They went after Muhammad and the moslims with a vengeance. The ensuing wars were, well, quite bloody, like all wars. Eventually, Muhammad conquered Mecca where he destroyed the idols, caricatures and images in the Kabaal. So, Islam's view of such idols as haraam stems from a bloody history of suppression as well as folding quite nicely into their monotheistic beliefs. It is not a "just because I want it to be..." kind of thing.
Still looks like it from here.
But the western mind has little appreciation for such foreign history and its effects on culture.
I appreciate that they don't like idol worshippers, and the idols they worship, I don't understand them getting upset over someone drawing a picture.
My little screed here can hardly do justice to the depth of emotion. Kinda like saying jews were killed by Nazis. There is much too much more to this then a mere "war". Sorry.
Yes, from idol worshippers and their idols not by someone drawing a picture. Sorry, I still see someone drawing a picture as something completely different than worshipping a pagan idol and killing Muslims. Also, they don;t seem to upset about depictions of pagan gods, even though it was actually people depicting pagan gods that killed them.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
onifre responds to me:
quote: If you didn't want a response made to your post that you put in a public forum that invites all and sundry to respond, perhaps that wasn't the best place for you to make your statement. Especially when it shows you using the same faulty logic you've been called out on: Pointing at vague, unnamed, undefined people as some sort of threat. Who are the specific people you are referring to?
quote: You tell me. You're the one saying that if you don't have control, you don't care. Well, you certainly don't have any control over the community center in New York, so why are you talking about it here? Do you just need attention? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Coyote writes:
quote: So why do you only complain when Muslims do it? Where is your outrage when Christians do it? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
quote: So why do you only complain when Muslims do it? Where is your outrage when Christians do it? I do. But that would be off topic on this thread. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Let me repeat: Sensitivity/diversity is a two-way street. No, it's not. Just like morality is not a two-way street: two wrongs don't make a right.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Rahvin writes:
Clearly, they are announcing to the world that Christianity is a religion of hatred, bigotry and book burning.The "Dove World Outreach Church" plans to reach out to the world on 9/11/10 by holding a good old-fashioned book-burning, and their target is specifically the Koran. Yes, I agree that free speech gives them the constitutional right to do this. But it doesn't give them the moral right. I am wondering when Christianity decided to abandon the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was a liberal hippie
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3665 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
I am wondering when Christianity decided to abandon the teachings of Jesus. Around the time Paul got involved?
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
nwr writes: I am wondering when Christianity decided to abandon the teachings of Jesus. cavediver writes:
Too true.Around the time Paul got involved? Jesus was a liberal hippie
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
But that would be off topic on this thread. Disclaimer: I am not a disinterested party in this topic. I (Minnemooseus) had a significant conflict with Rrhain not that far upthread. That said, I do think things have strayed too far from the topic core theme, which is the legal considerations and the moral (for offhand lack of a better term) propriety of the so called "ground zero mosque". I think we are having major conflicts between members who are in near if not absolute agreement concerning that core theme - I don't think Minnemooseus, Rrhain, or Omnifre have anything against it. I think this is a solid indicator that the topic has gone off the rails. So, I'm calling for closing summary messages - Only one per member. I think I'll close this topic down tomorrow, unless another admin does it first. The other related subthemes need to find a better home elsewhere, be it an existing or a new topic. Adminnemooseus
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I am not a fan of Islam. Likewise, I am not a fan of fundamentalist Christianity.
I am a fan of the first amendment, and it is clear that they have the right to build their center. The campaign against the center is mostly political theater, orchestrated by the crazies.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3985 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.2
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I am not a fan of religion, particularly the desert-baked sons of Abraham: Jews, Christians, Muslims.
It pains me to see that the question, "Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?" even merits discussion: Is a president being too PC when he keeps his oath to uphold the Constitution? As though we'd all prefer a president who picked and chose his Articles and Amendments. We had one of those; he didn't work out well. I'm relieved that the preponderant view seems to be that Obama acted correctly to defend religious liberties. As a vet, I'm particularly saddened by the folks in Florida. As Gen. Petraeus has suggested, they are going to cause needless deaths. Then they will take to the streets and cameras, waving their bloody hands, further inflaming both sides. When you fight fire with fire, everything burns. Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?! -Gogol Bordello Real things always push back.-William James
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
From via Page not found | ScienceBlogs
quote: More at my source, more at the sources source. Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add last sentence.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Yes, those idols. Not images of Mohammad. Deliberately obtuse? No, Huntard, not those kinds of idols. Muslims couldn't care less what pictures, statues, figurines or cartoons anyone wants to prey to just as long as they are not of Muhammad or God. And where the hell are the muslims? Why is this being left to some atheist to explain? Badly.
Also, worshipping an idol, and drawing a picture are two different things entirely. To the western mind this is so, but the rest of the world does not revolve around Europe and the USA. Even though I try to help avoid misunderstandings based on cultural ignorance I do not have the patience to preach on something I do not believe in. Just know that images (drawn, carved, molded, stamped, whatever) of Muhammad or God are hateful images in the extreme to a moslim. Accept that or not as you wish. If you ever do feel a curiosity as to the "why" then the history is out there ready for you to learn. [abe] Sorry, Moose. I did not see your closing statement. I beg the forgiveness of the mighty ones. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
"hooah212002" writes: Not that I care right now to get into a discussion about what the bible means, but I am pretty sure jesus did not come to change the law of the OT. But you see, anyone can interpret the words of the bible however they want and there is no way YOU can tell me I am wrong just because it's not what you want to hear. Not that you care? You are the one telling us what you think the bible means quote mining the entire bible, and taking things out of context. Completion of the law was to change it. And things did change. Yes you are right, anyone can use anything for justification for doing the WRONG thing. That doesn't make the bible bad, or any book bad, that makes people bad. What pisses me off is when people such as yourself, who come across as being smart, confuse those thoughts. I don't blame the Koran, like those idiots in Florida, I blame people. *Edit*My summary: I agree with nwr. Even though I believe in Jesus, I am not fan of religion. Religion pisses me off. To me, the first amendment is greater than whether it is ethically right or not to build a Mosque next to ground zero. Given the track record of the terrorists, we have to question things they do. They used a Mosque in Brooklyn to harbor the guy who first tried to blow up the towers. They hide in Mosques. It's only natural that we would look there to see if they were harboring any. Given the track record of many religious leaders, of all religions, I think that religious organizations should not be so "exempt" from being investigated. The FBI could not at the time of the first tower bombing investigate Al-Farooq Mosque in Brooklyn, because of their "religious status". Religion is just man, it's not God. Oh, and Rrhain, I don't know where you got the idea that Fox was funding the Mosque, I have not found anything online that says that. All I found was that the funding was sketchy, and they were even offered money from known terrorist leaders(or supporters of terrorism). I understand that this doesn't make them a terrorist, but it does put up a flag, and give probably cause. You managed to 100% mis-represent me in your raging quote mining rants. All I can say is you are completely wrong about me, and that you should probably take a print out of the conversation and see a psychiatrist. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
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