Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion

In my experience, people tend to leave a club due to "inconceivable flatulence" and "inappropriate use of the club mascot".

Your point is what?You don't feel that a valid reason for deconversion is that the religion no longer serves a purpose for the individual or did you just feel the need to trivialize my comment?

Joke I heard years ago:
While hiking in the mountains, a man falls off the trail, grabs a branch to stop himself, and finds himself hanging over an enormous drop with no escape in sight. He prays for deliverance from his plight and a voice from Heaven tells him, "Have faith and let go." He ponders this for a moment and shouts back, "Anybody else up there? I'd like a second opinion!"

You described religion as "a club".
That trivialises religion.My reply was in a similar vein.

My question is what kind of "club" are you two talking about? Looks like this might be an object lesson in what I was trying to tell Dawn, that confusion reigns when the different sides use different definitions for the same words.As for me, taking it in Panda's sense (I think), I have very little use for clubs because the music is both loud and lousy and they have forgotten the wisdom that it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. Besides, hardly anybody there knows how to dance (by which I mean partner dance).

i don't see why that would necessarily follow. yes, if would open the possibility (since a deity can exist, two deities wouldn't be completely unreasonable). but i don't know that one would suggest others. there's a story, probably invented, about a group of missionaries who went and told some african tribesmen about jesus, and god, and the gospels, and in the process, converted the tribesmen to satan worship. their logic was that god will forgive you, but the devil won't.Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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אָרַח

yeah, so, good luck with that one.

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אָרַח

Hi, arachnophilia.You and I haven't associated much on this forum, but you may be interested to know that I grew up a Mormon. I'm actually still a Mormon as far as decorum goes, but I consider myself agnostic philosophically.Incidentally, I also like spiders (I'm an arachnologist). As far as tests go, it's not too bad for a religious test; and Mormons stand behind it vigorously. Unfortunately, it's not actually as reliable as we like to think it is. I've never been very clear on what the sensation of "the truth being manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost" is supposed to be like, but the people around me didn't seem to have problems with it.One of the major problems I had was that, while the Holy Ghost is supposed to manifest truth, I seem fully capable of experiencing the same kinds of sensations when watching fictional "tearjerker" movies. The responses I get when I discuss this with my Mormon family and friends are things like (1) "The Spirit is confirming a principle to you"; or (2) "Are you sure it's the Spirit, and not just your personal emotions?"I generally just tell my Mormon friends that my spiritual sense doesn't work. Some of my friends tell me that, for those of us with broken spiritual senses, the Lord provides ways to reason out the truth, but I've so far failed at that too (I kind of avoid talking about this part with them, though).I've chosen not to officially deconvert (mainly for familial reasons), but I would accept any of these as valid and supportable reasons for someone to deconvert or to not convert in the first place. Just don't tell my mother or my bishop that I said that.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

I looked up the definition of club:

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A group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly: a garden club.

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This pretty much matches the definition that I thought PD was using.In my experience, when someone talks about clubs they tend to be talking about 'night clubs' (as you suggested), small 'hobby' clubs (e.g. book club) or sports clubs.
I would expect the religious people I work with not to be unhappy if I describing their religion a club.Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

I forgot about the "hobby club" definition. Actually, I thought that PD was refering to "club" as a weapon. I've certainly seen a number of religionists who use their religion as a weapon, as a club to beat those they don't like. California's Prop Hate, for example.But your interpretation of what he meant is probably much better than mine. After all, religion can lose its effectiveness as a social club, but never as a weapon.Edited by dwise1, : second paragraph

Of course it can even lose that function. If you no longer see the weapon as a threat, even that value is lost.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

well, i consider the lack of confirmation (a non-working spiritual sense) a pretty clear failure of the test. the question should be, what's a success supposed to be like, exactly? and, more interestingly. does this (like several other passages in the old testament) fundamentally violate deuteronomy 6:16, "you shall not tempt yahweh, your god."i'm going to attempt to hold my tongue on my actual argument until i hear why Dawn does or does not believe the other testament of jesus christ. out of morbid curiosity, were you slightly mormon, or very mormon? i have some experience with the kinds of mormons that go to church every sunday, are generally good people, and don't let it completely occupy their lives. the only exposure i've had to the more fervent, actually from utah type of mormon has been through missionaries.i enjoy inviting them in when they come around on saturdays, and having interesting discussions on the scriptures. JW's too.

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DB - I, too, will cite "thinking about Christian teachings in an adult fashion and finding them to have no basis in reality" as a good reason to deconvert. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things," is how your book puts it.And where are you, by the way? I'd like your take on some of these many answers you have here.Edited by Coragyps, : fix quote

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You described religion as "a club".
That trivialises religion.

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My reply was in a similar vein.

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So instead of addressing the position you decided to make a useless post. It is better to make a clear point instead of assuming everyone sees things the same way you do. My post made a point whether one considers clubs to be trivial or not.By your definition religion can be considered a club. There are members and there are rules to follow to become a member. Those who don't conform aren't considered part of the club. They have a common purpose.I guess I don't consider clubs to be trivial. Maybe since your definition mentioned garden club, which is usually associated with women, you consider them to be trivial.Do you feel that a valid reason for deconversion is that the religion no longer serves a purpose for the individual?

As you said, if there is one there can be two. What then would restrict the possibility of more?That's all I meant. Ha! That's cool, I like their logic.- Oni