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Member (Idle past 4731 days) Posts: 283 From: Weed, California, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Movie Paranormal Activity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Straggler writes: jar writes: You admit that there is no way to test the supernatural and so claiming something is supernatural is worthless, it tells us nothing. Do you believe that GOD is supernatural? Note - I am not asking you if GOD actually is supernatural. I am asking you what you believe. Can GOD be scientifically investigated and understood? No, GOD cannot be scientifically investigated or understood. Yes I believe that GOD is GOD, but I also understand that it is only a belief and may or may not be true. That is why I do not ever try to prove GOD exists. Maybe, just maybe, after I am dead I may be able to answer that beyond simply a personal belief. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: I can't know how being dead might expand my knowledge until after I am dead. You can't know how experiencing biblical Armageddon might expand your knowledge until you experience that can you?
jar writes: If your fictional Armageddon happened while I was alive then I would be unable to explain it, it would go into the Unknown folder. Unless it expanded your knowledge in the same way that you are suggesting being dead might. Are you advocating one scenario over the other because of personal preference alone? Or is there a more reasoned explanation for the inconsistent approach you are taking here?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And what if the supernatural claim is evidenced? As per Message 45 or Evidencing The Supernatural (Message 46) Without a scientific explanation for it, its not going to count as being evidenced. If its evidenced, with a scientific explanation, then its not going to count as being supernatural. From Message 46:
quote: If that does count, then so should the experiences of ghost-like things. Or the prophesies of Jim Jones to his followers. Those believers would have just as much positive evidence. And thus, we'd have a source outside of their imagination. But that doesn't count as a "known" source, because it lacks scientific explanation. If the scientists were not scratching their heads and unable to explain or replicate it, but instead they had an explanation and could replicate it, then it wouldn't be called supernatural anymore. But them scratching their heads, and unable to explain it, doesn't mean that it should be called supernatural. Why not leave it as unknown? What evidence is there that it is supernatural?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: No, GOD cannot be scientifically investigated or understood. Right. Then it seems that the object of your belief qualifies as "supernatural" by most common definitions and usage of the term (as per those linked to by Slevesque in Message 44). It seems especially nonsensical for you to say that Slevesque's definitions are meaningless and irrelevant given that the object of your own belief is accurately described in this way. When people use the term supernatural they are referring to things which are inherently inexplicable. They are not talking about the unexplained. They are talking about the unexplainable. The fact that people have persistently wrongly believed things to be inherently inexplicable doesn't change this meaning or give you the right to start inventing some sort of silly folder system that only applies whilst alive for some bizzarre reason.
jar writes: That is why I do not ever try to prove GOD exists. The question here is not whether or not GOD exists. The question is what is meant when we say that something is 'supernatural' and what legitimately constitutes evidence of the supernatural. It seems that this GOD of yours does indeed qualify as supernatural. As does biblical Armageddon invoked by the divine will of Yahweh. Should positive evidence for either of these phenomena present itself (whether you are dead or alive) it would therefore constitute positive evidence (not proof in either case) in favour of the supernatural.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: Without a scientific explanation for it, its not going to count as being evidenced. Don't conflate verified existence with scientific explanation.
CS writes: If its evidenced, with a scientific explanation, then its not going to count as being supernatural. If it has a scientifically tested explanation then you are right that it cannot be regarded as supernatural. But that is not the same as being scientifically verified to exist.
CS writes: If that does count, then so should the experiences of ghost-like things. Nothing resembling ghosts has ever been demonstrated to exist.
CS writes: Or the prophesies of Jim Jones to his followers. People believing Jim Jones to have supernatural powers is not the same as him demonstrating that he did have such powers.
CS writes: Those believers would have just as much positive evidence. And thus, we'd have a source outside of their imagination. People claiming that they have seen stuff is not the same as the demonstrable actuality I described. Read my example again. Then tell me where I can find Jim Jones verifiably demonstrating such abilities.
CS writes: What evidence is there that it is supernatural? You seem to be suggesting that the demonstrable existence of an entity that exactly matches the Christian concept of a supernatural Jesus isn't evidence in favour of the actual existence of the supernatural Christian concept of Jesus. Even the most rabid cynic would have to admit that this is a somewhat overly skeptical approach.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1530 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
If the thing labled supernatural is evidenced and ceases to be a mystery and fully understood and verified by the scientific community; then by all means let's put it in the known folder.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Don't conflate verified existence with scientific explanation. Show me the important disctinction and exemplify it.
Nothing resembling ghosts has ever been demonstrated to exist. What does "demonstrated to exist" mean?
People believing Jim Jones to have supernatural powers is not the same as him demonstrating that he did have such powers. His prophesies were the demonstration.
People claiming that they have seen stuff is not the same as the demonstrable actuality I described. Read my example again. Then tell me where I can find Jim Jones verifiably demonstrating such abilities. Jonestown, Guyana, 1978.
You seem to be suggesting that the demonstrable existence of an entity that exactly matches the Christian concept of a supernatural Jesus isn't evidence in favour of the actual existence of the supernatural Christian concept of Jesus. Depends on what you mean by "demonstrate"...
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Straggler writes: jar writes: I can't know how being dead might expand my knowledge until after I am dead. You can't know how experiencing biblical Armageddon might expand your knowledge until you experience that can you?
jar writes: If your fictional Armageddon happened while I was alive then I would be unable to explain it, it would go into the Unknown folder. Unless it expanded your knowledge in the same way that you are suggesting being dead might. Are you advocating one scenario over the other because of personal preference alone? Or is there a more reasoned explanation for the inconsistent approach you are taking here? I said already that I cannot imagine any way I could identify anything as supernatural while I am alive. As long as I am natural, part of the natural world, I can only experience natural things. I may experience something unexplained, I may even personally think it is supernatural, but honest compels me to place all such things in the Unknown folder. Been over this with you. That's my position. If you don't like it, that too is fine. No skin off my butt. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Straggler writes: jar writes: No, GOD cannot be scientifically investigated or understood. Right. Then it seems that the object of your belief qualifies as "supernatural" by most common definitions and usage of the term (as per those linked to by Slevesque in Message 44). It seems especially nonsensical for you to say that Slevesque's definitions are meaningless and irrelevant given that the object of your own belief is accurately described in this way. When people use the term supernatural they are referring to things which are inherently inexplicable. They are not talking about the unexplained. They are talking about the unexplainable. The fact that people have persistently wrongly believed things to be inherently inexplicable doesn't change this meaning or give you the right to start inventing some sort of silly folder system that only applies whilst alive for some bizzarre reason.
jar writes: That is why I do not ever try to prove GOD exists. The question here is not whether or not GOD exists. The question is what is meant when we say that something is 'supernatural' and what legitimately constitutes evidence of the supernatural. It seems that this GOD of yours does indeed qualify as supernatural. As does biblical Armageddon invoked by the divine will of Yahweh. Should positive evidence for either of these phenomena present itself (whether you are dead or alive) it would therefore constitute positive evidence (not proof in either case) in favour of the supernatural. As long as I am part of this natural world I can not imagine any positive evidence for the supernatural. Period. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS on Jim Jones writes: His prophesies were the demonstration. What did Jimmy prophecise?
CS as an example of JJ's supernatural powers writes: Jonestown, Guyana, 1978. Huh? What is materially inexplicable about killing lots of people? Your comparison seems rather weak.
CS conflating verified existence with scientific explanation writes: Show me the important disctinction and exemplify it. In my scenario the existence of Chris, his biology defying DNA and his abilities, are objectively verifiable and essentially indisputable. But a scientific explanation for these things remains elusive.
CS writes: Depends on what you mean by "demonstrate"... Take Chris and put him in a lab if you want. Study his DNA. Get him to turn water into wine or to walk across the swimming pool without getting his feet wet. Bring some long dead corpses in and get him to do his resurrection thing. In the scenario I described the existence of this person and his abilities are indisputable. But there is no material explanation. So - Is the demonstrable existence of an entity that exactly matches the Christian concept of a supernatural Jesus evidence in favour of the actual existence of the supernatural Christian concept of Jesus? How can it not be?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Why can't it be both known to exist and supernatural?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
See Message 402 for my response.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: I said already that I cannot imagine any way I could identify anything as supernatural while I am alive. You could equally legitimately say "I cannot imagine any way I could identify anything as supernatural unless experiencing biblical Armageddon as divinely invoked by Yahweh himself" The distinction you are making boils down to nothing more than your personal belief system and that which you want to classify as potentially supernatural.
jar writes: I may experience something unexplained, I may even personally think it is supernatural, but honest compels me to place all such things in the Unknown folder. Why doesn't this honesty apply once you are dead?
jar writes: As long as I am natural, part of the natural world, I can only experience natural things. On what basis do you assume that being dead might remove you from the natural world in a way that biblical Armageddon couldn't.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: As long as I am part of this natural world I can not imagine any positive evidence for the supernatural. If evidence were limited to what you could imagine humanity would be in a sorry state. Your inability to imagine and baseless assumptions about death are no basis upon which to make reasoned conclusions about the nature of positive evidence.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Again, I already answered. I don't see any way that your imagined Biblical Armageddon would remove me from this natural world. What is the test I apply to determine that it is really divinely invoked by Yahweh himself?
As long as I am alive, I can't see any tests that can be applied to determine that. As for after I am dead, well, not having been dead yet I can't tell you what is different, which is why I have (I think) suggested that after I am dead I might be able to tell what was different. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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