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Author Topic:   "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 860 (105801)
05-06-2004 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brian
05-04-2004 4:42 PM


Re: Two Exoduses, or maybe three?
Hi Brian. It's late and gotta hit hay, but I'll address this now before retiring.
So it tells us right here that the Red Sea was not the scene of the Israelite sea-crossing miracle, the text informs us that that they passed through the midst of the sea, then , after another three days journey, they arrived at the Red Sea.

So what will it be Buzz, did they pass through the Red Sea, and then three days later they arrived at the Red Sea, how does that work?

Here's how it likely worked. Note that in verse 8 they "passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness." This is the crossing of the (un-named) sea. Then the text proceeds to detail every encampment of their itinerary. They went here and there and by the way, they also arrived on the shore of the Red Sea again, but please note that it doesn't say that they crossed it this time. They likely encamped by it again on their looooong wilderness journey, but this time on the East shore of Aqaba.

The bottom line to all this is that the imperial evidence is there at the Aqaba sandbar. The chariot junkyard is there and there's no reason under heaven for a mess of chariot debris to be in the middle of any sea. There's the likely evidence on the Arabian side also that Mt Sinai is really over there and there's other stuff near the mountain indicating they were likely there. There's also the split rock with evidence of the water flow. You need to view the video to understand all the evidence there is before debunking it as nonsense.

The waters of Egypt were all turned blood red, likely including the Red Sea, according to scripture, not only once, but twice, once by Moses and Aaron and again by the Egyptian magicians and sorcerers. so Red is a likely title for the blood red waters. Your Reed Sea thing is very controversial and nobody has proven it to be credible, imo.

I need to be outa town tomorrow, but will try to get back to responding to more when I can.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 05-04-2004 4:42 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Brian, posted 05-06-2004 10:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 13428
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 75 of 860 (105811)
05-06-2004 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
05-06-2004 1:14 AM


Re: Exodus
Well that's a clear message from you Buz. "Don't look at the facts. Stop before you see the truth"

The evidence against Wyatt is clear - it's so strong that even creationist organidations reject his claims. So there's no reason to place any faith in the video at all - let alone to consider it the final word on the matter.

If you really had confidence in your beliefs you wouldn't suggest stopping with one suspect source. You would have nothing to fear from a PROPER investigation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 1:14 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 05-06-2004 9:10 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 81 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 10:49 AM PaulK has responded

  
MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 76 of 860 (105854)
05-06-2004 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
04-27-2004 12:39 AM


Re: once more ... {edit added}
buzsaw

quote:
. As I have shown to be the case in past threads, the Muslim god and the Christian god are not one and the same, the proper name of the Christian god being, Jehovah (Hebrew, YHWH/Yahweh)meaning "the existing one" or the "I am" and the Muslim god being simply Allah meaning "god." Jehovah is not recognized by Muslims as the true god. Only Allah is. It would be off topic to explain this in detail here, but some place in the archives is my names of God thread and another on Christianity and Islam being 180 degrees apart. Both theads deal with this.

It is utterly irrelevant that, from the christian viewpoint, the god of the Bible and the god of the Koran are different. What is important is that it is part of Islamic doctrine that the Bible (old and new) are precursors of the Koran; which became necessary because of corruptions in the Bible. Hence, Islamic scholars, while placing less emphasis on the Biblical accounts, have a strong incentive to prove them true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 04-27-2004 12:39 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 10:56 AM MarkAustin has not yet responded
 Message 84 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 11:07 AM MarkAustin has not yet responded

  
MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 77 of 860 (105855)
05-06-2004 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brian
05-04-2004 4:42 PM


Re: Two Exoduses, or maybe three?
Just to add to your remarks Brian, look here

quote:
Soof" means "reeds." The Jews crossed the "Yam Soof" which means the "Sea of Reeds.

The source is written by a Judaic college, and references two sources:

quote:
"The Living Torah" by Rabbi A. Kaplan, Exodus 10:19, 13:18
Artscroll Chumash Stone Edition, Exodus 13:18

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 05-04-2004 4:42 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Brian, posted 05-06-2004 9:19 AM MarkAustin has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 78 of 860 (105860)
05-06-2004 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by PaulK
05-06-2004 3:43 AM


Re: Exodus
Hi Paul, how are you?

If you really had confidence in your beliefs you wouldn't suggest stopping with one suspect source. You would have nothing to fear from a PROPER investigation.

I know you are referring to the Aqabah nonsense here, but what surprises me is that these people who are peddling this nonsense seem unaware that the accounts of the Exodus and Conquest have already been thoroughly investigated, and the Bible narratives have been rejected by all who have investigated them, Christian and non-Christian alike. There has been over one hundred years of archaeological investigation in the ancient near east and it is universally accepted that there was no mass Exodus of people out of Egypt either in the 15th or 13th century BCE, there was no deterioration in Egyptian power until later, there is no sign whatsoever of any group that can be identified as Israelite in Egypt at all.

There may be chariot wheels in Aqabah but it doesnt automatically follow that the Bible account has anything to do with it. All that chariot wheels in Aqabah can tell us is that at some point in time these chariot wheels found there way into the Gulf of Aqabah, thats it, they can say nothing else. How they got there may be implied from external sources, but thats all they do. These people are, in fact, ignoring huge chunks of the biblical text AND ignoring the vast mountains of archaeological data. They do not seem to be aware that you cannot just ascribe an event to a group of people without placing it in a wider context. Braudel called it la longue duree, surface events, such as the sea crossing (if we grant for a minute that it did happen), are only a small part of a more permanent, regular and less emphasised background, and that these epics cannot be fully comprehended without taking background information into consideration.

It is all well and good that there may be chariot wheels in the Gulf of Aqabah, but this event would not just have happened in isolation, it has to be supported from external sources, it would have to have a knock-on effect. For example, if the pharaohs armies are all destroyed in the sea, why was there no dip in Egyptian power at this time? If this story is true, why are the princes of the city-states in Palestine writing letters to the pharaoh asking for military aid, why are they still sending the pharaoh taxes, why are there no records in other contemporary cultures to the routing of pharaoh and his armies?

To pluck this solitary piece of information out of the air and claim that it supports the Bible is amateur and shows horrendous ignorance of historical methodologies. My own research has led me to conclude that such is the lack of evidence for the Exodus from Egypt that scholars HAVE to date it by finding a date for the conquest and then subtracting about 40 years from that date, (hence the date for the Aqabah chariot wheels) this is incompatible with the claims made in the Hebrew Bible. The date for the conquest is now universally accepted as being during the Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age, and why is this, it is not because there is evidence to support the entry of Israelites into Palestine at this time, it is ONLY because if it was going to happen, then this was the most LIKELY time. Granted there is a huge increase in the number of central hill country settlements, but it has never been demonstrated that these inhabitants were anything other than the displaced local population.

If the two million Israelites escaped from Egypt, then hung around Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years, then swept through Palestine obliterating all opposition, then where did they come from, and where did they go, they are invisible.

Brian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2004 3:43 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 11:21 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 79 of 860 (105861)
05-06-2004 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by MarkAustin
05-06-2004 8:34 AM


Re: Two Exoduses, or maybe three?
Hi Mark,

Thank you for the information.

It is very widely known that yam sup means 'Sea of reeds', we can thank the Septuagint yet again for another inaccurate translation. Contrary to what Buz wishes to believe, and he is entitled to his opinion, very very few scholars equate yam sup with the Red Sea. But hey, if you are selling books and videos who cares about the truth, we all need a retirement fund.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by MarkAustin, posted 05-06-2004 8:34 AM MarkAustin has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 80 of 860 (105878)
05-06-2004 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by cromwell
04-28-2004 2:05 PM


Re: Exodus
Hi Cromwell,

I read earlier that the exodus was proved to be false.Egyptians would have caught the fleeing Israelites,wrong terrain e.t.c.Can someone please direct me to these sites or any other references that look into this matter.

I outlined a few of the problems with the biblical Exodus in another thread HERE , please feel free to make any comments or ask any questions about the material.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by cromwell, posted 04-28-2004 2:05 PM cromwell has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 860 (105896)
05-06-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by PaulK
05-06-2004 3:43 AM


Re: Exodus
Well that's a clear message from you Buz. "Don't look at the facts. Stop before you see the truth"
The evidence against Wyatt is clear - it's so strong that even creationist organidations reject his claims. So there's no reason to place any faith in the video at all - let alone to consider it the final word on the matter.

If you really had confidence in your beliefs you wouldn't suggest stopping with one suspect source. You would have nothing to fear from a PROPER investigation.

Paul, this just shows how closed and narrow minded you are being in all this. This video has nothing to do with Wyatt and the research has nothing to do with Wyatt's organization. Yes, Wyatt was there first as I understand it, but this is a more scientific approach which seems to prove some of Wyatt's claims to be credible.

What's the matter? Are you afraid viewing the video and getting the whole story right might prove the supernatural dimension to exist in the universe and might affect your own life and thinking?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2004 3:43 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 05-06-2004 11:30 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 860 (105899)
05-06-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by MarkAustin
05-06-2004 8:23 AM


Re: once more ... {edit added}
Islamic scholars, while placing less emphasis on the Biblical accounts, have a strong incentive to prove them true.

LOL. Not when that Bible exhonerates and blesses their enemies, Israel and when it prophesies the messianic future to be Jewish headed by Jesus the Jew. Same with this crossing. It was the Jews, enemies of Islam who were helped and Egypt, their ally who was devastated by it. You and others need to come to reality in your thinking on this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by MarkAustin, posted 05-06-2004 8:23 AM MarkAustin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 05-06-2004 11:12 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 83 of 860 (105900)
05-06-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Buzsaw
05-06-2004 1:49 AM


Re: Two Exoduses, or maybe three?
Hi Buz,

I need to be outa town tomorrow, but will try to get back to responding to more when I can.

No probs Buz, I fully understand.

Take your time with a reply, I am back at work now and have a huge backlog of papers to assess. Exams start soon so I should have more free time on my hands.

Take care.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 1:49 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 860 (105904)
05-06-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by MarkAustin
05-06-2004 8:23 AM


Re: once more ... {edit added}
Also Mark, if Muslims are allegedly so intent on proving the Bible true, why is it necessary for Christians to smuggle Bibles into many Islamic nations and why are some severely persecuted for being caught reading or teaching the Bible?? No, Saudi Arabia does not want this Exodus story verified or in the headlines, imo. I understand there's barb wire and guards around the area of the burnt mountain there in Saudi Arabia and that much of what's been researched there was researched covertly.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by MarkAustin, posted 05-06-2004 8:23 AM MarkAustin has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 85 of 860 (105905)
05-06-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
05-06-2004 10:56 AM


Re: once more ... {edit added}
Buz

You really need to do some research on Islam.

First when did Exodus supposedly happen? When did Islam begin?

Second, ISLAM is not a foe of the Jew. Infact, Jews and Christians and Zoastrians are all Children of the Book. There is nothing in the Koran that is either anti-Jew or anti-Christian. Mohammud only achieved his success at Mecca and Medina because he had the direct aid and support of his Jewish Neighbors.

The GOD of ISLAM is infact, the very same GOD as that of the Jews and the Christians. We are all one religious family, Jew, Christian and Muslim. That is part of what makes this whole mess right now so horrible, it is all within the same family.

It is the wars between Judea and Israel all over again.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 10:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 860 (105908)
05-06-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brian
05-06-2004 9:10 AM


I know you are referring to the Aqabah nonsense here, but what surprises me is that these people who are peddling this nonsense seem unaware that the accounts of the Exodus and Conquest have already been thoroughly investigated, and the Bible narratives have been rejected by all who have investigated them, Christian and non-Christian alike. There has been over one hundred years of archaeological investigation in the ancient near east and it is universally accepted that there was no mass Exodus of people out of Egypt either in the 15th or 13th century BCE, there was no deterioration in Egyptian power until later, there is no sign whatsoever of any group that can be identified as ?Israelite? in Egypt at all.

Before heading outa town, I'm getting in a few responses in the order that the statements came.

This is just not so, Brian. Everything has certainly not been thoroughly investigated and like other science, new technology, etc make for much better research. You should know that.

You need to view the video before making these bogus statements with total disregard to the imperial evidence. The video begins with the discovery by an Austrian research team of archeologists who've found a city in Egypt which was occupied at that time by foreigners. The truth is finally coming out, Biran. Don't fight it. Look at it objectively before you discount it. That's true science.

Gotta run for now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 05-06-2004 9:10 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Brian, posted 05-06-2004 11:30 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 13428
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 87 of 860 (105913)
05-06-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Buzsaw
05-06-2004 10:49 AM


Re: Exodus
I'm being narrow-minded ? You're the one who said to STOP looking at the evidence beyond that one video. What are YOU scared of - the truth ?

I guess that because you STOPPED looking you assume that there are no links between the video and Wyatt. Well just because you didn't look at the evidence doesn't say that it doesn't exist.

According to http://www.arkdiscovery.com/dvd-books.htm
"The Exodus Revealed - DVD & Video A must have, professionally produced, TV quality, production featuring the Red Sea crossing, the real Mount Sinai, and evidence of the Hebrews in Egypt. Based upon the work of Ron Wyatt. DVD has extras so get it if possible. Dr. Lennart Moller helped produce this video"

According to http://anchorstone.com/71002.html
"The first is "The Exodus Revealed". This video is based on the research and field work of Ron Wyatt. Dr. Lennart Moller, the researcher responsible for this video, has continued Ron's work on this subject in a remarkable way. I recently spent 2 days talking with Dr. Moller while we were in Portland and the research material he has brought together is impressive. In my opinion this is the best documentation on the Exodus and Red Sea crossing available today"

At http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Covenant_Eschatology/message/1253
"Using the research given to him personally by Ron Wyatt, Dr. Lennart Moller has recently completed exhaustive study and documentation of both of these sites. This research is now available to the public in both a full-color book, "The Exodus Case" and a companion video, "The Exodus Revealed"."

at http://www.christiananswers.net/abr/sinai_not_arabia.html
"The most recent is a video entitled The Exodus Revealed by Lennart Moller. He also has a book entitled The Exodus Case. He basically uses Ron Wyatts material and follows his ideas."

According to www.oroville-eternal-riders.org/ Keith/Latest%20Nuwieba.pdf
"Lennart had dove at the site with Ron and
Eric before..."

According to http://www.staugustine.com/stories/092002/rel_995514.shtml
"Moller, in turn, relies much on the findings of Ron Wyatt, a Tennessee researcher and scuba diver who died in 1999. "

Nothing to do with Wyatt ? Or "Based upon the work of Ron Wyatt" delivered personally by Ron Wyatt to an associate of Ron Wyatt ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 10:49 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 88 of 860 (105914)
05-06-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
05-06-2004 11:21 AM


No probs Buz, we can chat when you return.

Have a safe trip, and enjoy yourself.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2004 11:21 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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