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Author Topic:   Lebanon In End Time Bible Prophecy
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 400 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 1 of 178 (338043)
08-04-2006 11:46 PM


There are several remarkable pre-mesianic period end time prophecies about Lebanon written some 700 or more years BC in the OT prophecy books. How do we know they are end time? By the context is the answer to that. The context of some of these are very clearly messianic period and others quite clear.

1. Zechariah a prophecy clearly by context to be fulfilled in the latter days before messianic reign prophesies in chapter 10 that After Israel is brought out of the nations they will occupy the Golan Heights and Lebanon after the trees and burnt and the land devastated. It will be in the time of severe world wide drought which I've posted about in past years here at EvC. This prophecy says the rivers of this reagion will be dried up sometime in the times of the prophecy fulfillment. For nearly 1900 years after the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus of Rome Israel were scattered worldwide and miraculously remained to be identifiable as a race/people/nation to return to their homeland, Israel.

2. Ezekiel 17 mentions some destruction of trees etc of Lebanon by a great eagle with great wings, possibly indicative of aircraft, though this prophecy is not one of the more significant ones concerning Lebanon for this time. It's an interesting one to try and discern.

3. Isaiah 10 is quite significant. It describes the restoration of Israel and in verse 34 finally flat out says "Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one."

3. In Isaiah 29 beginning with verse 17 it is prophesied tha Lebanon will be restored by the blessings of Israel in the messianic age. Here again it is implied that it's occupation will be shared by Israel where the messianic kingdom will be. This will, of course be after the destruction of the nation which was at enmity with Israel before it's destruction.

This is just one of the end time nations of prophecy. Threre are most of the other nations who are now enemies which will suffer similar destruction according to the various prophecies concerning them. This destruction does not, of course come until after they have afflicted Israel, indicating that before their destruction they will be not only all allied against Israel as per the modern day senario, but they will rise to significant power and possibly replace the US as the prominent force in the world. This is pretty well established in the prophecies that the West will diminish and the Mid Eastern and North African Muslim nations will rise to much more power and influence than they now have. They will be backed by Russia and the other nations to the north of Israel according to Ezekiel chapter 38 which is the prophetic account of what is known as Armageddon itself as per Revelation 16:16.

1. Are these prophecies being fulfilled in our days?
2. Are these prophecies and others indicative of the supernatural nature of the Biblical account as well as it's accuracy as a historical record?
3. How does the current Lebanon war factor in these prophecies and are there any clues in them as to how the Mid East crisis will come out in the end.
4. Are there any prophecies here or elsewhere that contradict what has been and is being observed in both history and current events.

I suppose this topic would be suitable for the Biblical Accuracy and Inerrancy Forum if another admin wishes to promote it.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
Replies to this message:
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AdminFaith
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Message 2 of 178 (338047)
08-05-2006 12:48 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 10848
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 3 of 178 (338067)
08-05-2006 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-04-2006 11:46 PM


Business as usual
When I see one of these posts form Buzsaw I expect him to misrepresent the Bible and it is no surprise that he has done it again.

1) A minor point here, Zechariah 10 refers to the return of the Lost Tribes. So we cannot say that it is being fulfilled.

2) Ezekiel 17 does NOT mention the destruction of a cedar by an eagle


3 saying, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "A great eagle with great wings, long pinions and a full plumage of many colors came to Lebanon and took away the top of the cedar.

4 "He plucked off the topmost of its young twigs and brought it to a land of merchants; he set it in a city of traders.

Plucking off the "topmost twigs" is not destroying a full-grown tree by any stretch of the imagination. And read on to see what happens to the twigs.

3) Isaiah 10 is about liberation from the Assyrians


12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness."


24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, "O My people who dwell in Zion, do not fear the Assyrian who strikes you with the rod and lifts up his staff against you, the way Egypt did.

25"For in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent and My anger will be directed to their destruction."

So it is about days long gone, and not about modern times at all.

4) Isaiah 29 doesn't give any real details that can be linked to the current situation - and seems to be predicting the immediate future:


17 Is it not yet just a little while
Before Lebanon will be turned into a fertile field,
And the fertile field will be considered as a forest?

The present day canot be reasonably considered to be only a "little while" after the writing of Isaiah 29

So to answer the first 3 questions:

1) The Lost Tribes have not returned, Ezekiel 17 has been completely misrepresented and the two Isaiah references refer to things that must be long past. Accordingly we cannot reliably say that ANY of these prophecies are being fulfilled in the present day.

2) Equally these prophecies cannot be said to indicate that the Bible is especially reliable historically or in any way supernatural. Why should we be surprised that the Bible mentions a neighbouring kingdom - which existed at the time that the relevant verses were written ?

3) Current Lebanon cannot be said to be a factor in any of these prophecies. The only one that could refer to a future event is the first (ruling out the second on the grounds that it completely misrepresents the text) and we have no way of knowing if it will ever be fulfilled.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2006 11:46 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 1458 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 4 of 178 (338076)
08-05-2006 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-04-2006 11:46 PM


Good grief.

buzz writes:

4. Are there any prophecies here or elsewhere that contradict what has been and is being observed in both history and current events.

Yes. My prophecy that the alien overlord Sath-Erg-Kevin will come very soon to transport my eternal alien soul to the distant planet Bob. No others will be saved. Just me. Everyone else is condemned to oblivion, which will come in the form of Sath's laser fusion-bombs.

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.


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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 400 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 5 of 178 (338077)
08-05-2006 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
08-05-2006 5:42 AM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:

1) A minor point here, Zechariah 10 refers to the return of the Lost Tribes. So we cannot say that it is being fulfilled.

I see primarily Judah and secondarily Ephraim in chapter 10. Please elaborate. I'll be outa town much of the day. Talk to you later.


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 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 5:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 10848
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 178 (338091)
08-05-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
08-05-2006 9:17 AM


Re: Business as usual
Ephraim is one of the two "half-tribes" (Ephraim and Manessah) and in this context is a reference to the "Lost Tribes". (The Tribes of Israel exiled by the Assyrians).

Thus the prophecy cannot be fulfilled until the Lost Tribes return..


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2006 5:25 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2006 5:49 PM PaulK has responded

    
arachnophilia
Member
Posts: 8967
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 178 (338127)
08-05-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
08-05-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Business as usual
Thus the prophecy cannot be fulfilled until the Lost Tribes return..

israel officially considers the ethiopian jews a lost tribe. operations moses and solomon in 1984 and 1991 are said to (partially?) fulfill that prophecy.


אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 10848
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 8 of 178 (338132)
08-05-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
08-05-2006 5:25 PM


Re: Business as usual
According to the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel there is an idea that they are Danites who left before the Assyrian forced migration. Even if this is true (and the genetic evidence apparently suggests that they are native Ethiopians), it is not even a partial return of those sent into exile by the Assyrians..
This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 400 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 9 of 178 (338133)
08-05-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
08-05-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:

Ephraim is one of the two "half-tribes" (Ephraim and Manessah) and in this context is a reference to the "Lost Tribes". (The Tribes of Israel exiled by the Assyrians).
Thus the prophecy cannot be fulfilled until the Lost Tribes return..

1. It is true as per Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 37 that the lost tribes are implicated in the messianic Israel, but the kingdom will be primarily Judaic, the messianic prophesies all declaring that the messiaic king will be of the tribe of Judah and of the root of Jesse, David's father of the tribe of Judah. For the purpose of this thread and according some of the significant prophecies, the remnants of Judah will be the primary players in this emerging event.
2. Zechariah 10 specifies the house of Joseph who's sons were Ephraim and Manasseh, Ephriam being the one who received the inheritance blessing. Thus the "house" of Ephraim here is specified. Ephraim seemed to emerge as the more prominent tribe of Israel in the end.
3. There are claims that the Pakistanis, the Afgans, parts of India and elsewhere in the Mideast are remnants of the lost tribes, but I don't know how much validity there is to this. Perhaps DNA tech and other modern means of tracing geneologies, et al will factor in this or perhaps messiah will do the sorting out.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 10848
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 10 of 178 (338135)
08-05-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
08-05-2006 5:49 PM


Re: Business as usual
This really doesn't deal with the point, that the exiles (or rather their dedcendants) have to return for the prophecy to be fulfilled. And so far as we can tell they are hopelessly lost, absorbed into other populations. Indeed it could be said that they no longer exist since all that appears to remain is distant descendants who have no special knowledge or attachment to their remote heritage.e
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 400 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 11 of 178 (338139)
08-05-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
08-05-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:

it is not even a partial return of those sent into exile by the Assyrians..

Most of these prophecies do not specify the Assyrian exiled tribes. It's mosly about Judah primarily and the house of Ephraim secondarily. It appears that the lost tribes will eventually factor in, but having a significantly lesser role in the kingdom and specifically in the prophecy concerning the occupation of Lebanon.

Regardless, the context of all of these prophecies are latter day messianic time prophecies. All one need do is read them in context and you will see that the events prophesied are not historical events except the parts of them which have emerged in the history of the last century and a half and more significantly the last 60 years.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 10848
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 12 of 178 (338140)
08-05-2006 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
08-05-2006 6:08 PM


Re: Business as usual
I know that you keep claiming that there have been major developments in the last 60 years, but there really haven't been a lot. The establishment of Isreal as a democratic state - and not a monarchy - is about it, and there is a lot more that needs to happen.

Zechariah 10 specifically refers to the returning of the Lost Tribes from many places - and Assyria is named. This it cannot be fulfilled until that happens.

Indeed, verse 9 seems to assume that the exiles will remian faithful to their Hebrew origins:


9"When I scatter them among the peoples,
They will remember Me in far countries,
And they with their children will live and come back.

o


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arachnophilia
Member
Posts: 8967
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 178 (338146)
08-05-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
08-05-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Business as usual
According to the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel there is an idea that they are Danites who left before the Assyrian forced migration. Even if this is true (and the genetic evidence apparently suggests that they are native Ethiopians), it is not even a partial return of those sent into exile by the Assyrians..

no, of course not. but welcome to religious belief -- you'll often see many christians on this board profess that such and such a prophecy was fulfilled (see tyre, for example)

also, btw, the lemba of south africa apparently are a lost tribe. though they don't claim to be any particular tribe, they are possibly descended from levites, as they have the kohanim modal haplotype.


אָרַח

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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 400 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 14 of 178 (338192)
08-06-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
08-05-2006 6:21 PM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:

I know that you keep claiming that there have been major developments in the last 60 years, but there really haven't been a lot. The establishment of Isreal as a democratic state - and not a monarchy - is about it, and there is a lot more that needs to happen.

Yes, more is to happen. My statements here including the OP certainly do not claim all is fulfilled. I've made that clear. My point in all this is to show that there have indeed been major developments in the past half century + which are on track with the prophecies so far implicating the likelihood that the prophecies are credible and the Biblical record is reliable. The more we add to the list of on track stuff such as the drawing of the nations into the Mideast and present Lebanon events, et al, the more likely the unfulfilled ones will follow suit.

1. The European Holocaust and antisemitism drives the Jews out of Europe with the wastelands of their national heritage opening up for them.
2. Many willingly sold their land in the region to the Israeli immigrants, confident that they could take it by force later, but that backfired.
3. The nation is reborn in 1948.
4. A number of aggressive wars started by Israel's enemies continued to add territory to Israel with defeat to the enemy under great odds in favor of the enemy, especially in the earlier wars.
5. Russia opens up to allow many Jews to leave.
6. As per the prophecies, Israel becomes surrounded with enemies bent on their destruction.
7. The expansion and influence of Islam draws an ever increasing interest and focus to the Mideast, drawing nations into the region and it's conflicts as per the prophecies, Zech 14 for just one example.
8. After taking the Sinai Israel returns it to Egypt. This is significant because it is not part of the prophesied boundaries of the future Israel. There is a specific prophecy stating that the River/brook of Egypt to the south and the Euphrates to the north will be the ultimate boundaries of the restored Israel. I'll try to find that and produce it later. That the major contention has been in the north is significant in that regard.
9 Now the prophecies concerning Lebanon appear to be coming into play. That is not to say Lebanon will be permanently occupied by Israel at this time, but that these events are significant in that regard.
10. That the wastelands of Israel will again blossom and flourish is being significantly fulfilled with Israel exporting far more than it consumes, being one of the major exporters of lush produce to Europe and other areas.

PaulK writes:

Zechariah 10 specifically refers to the returning of the Lost Tribes from many places - and Assyria is named. This it cannot be fulfilled until that happens.

I don't see that you have established that yet. That it mentions Assyria/Syria is not necessarily indicative of the lost tribes, nor is the house of Joseph or the house of Ephraim.

PaulK writes:

Indeed, verse 9 seems to assume that the exiles will remian faithful to their Hebrew origins:

9"When I scatter them among the peoples,
They will remember Me in far countries,
And they with their children will live and come back.

No. All it says is that they will 1. remember their god, Jehovah, and 2. that they will return from the far countries. The specifics of their religion are not given. Besides, their Hebrew origins and scriptures include a messianic future kingdom which the orthadox take more seriously. The NT says at the 2nd advent of Jesus to Israel their eyes will be opened (future). Did you see on the news, the Jewish soldier standing on the tank of battle doing his prayer ritual between actions, bobbing his head as he prayed? That was on Fox earlier in the war.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 6:21 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 10848
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 15 of 178 (338193)
08-06-2006 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
08-06-2006 12:02 AM


Re: Business as usual
Your list has a distinct lack of substance. None of it is specific enough to back up your claims. And as I have pointed out in the past there is good evidence to the contrary.

Back to Zechariah 10

If you seriously want to argue that "Ephraim" is a reference to the half-tribe of Ephraim alone and not to the Lost Tribes as a whole, go ahead. It doesn't help you because Ephraim is one of the Lost Tribes and the only possible candidates produced so far are allegedly from the Tribe of Dan.

quote:

No. All it says is that they will 1. remember their god, Jehovah...

You just managed to contradict yourself. Thee problem is that they DON'T remember Yahweh (and they certainly can't remember a poor attempt at a German transliteration of His name !)


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Replies to this message:
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