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Author Topic:   Holistic Doctors, and medicine
Taz
Member (Idle past 1246 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 91 of 304 (417557)
08-21-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by molbiogirl
08-21-2007 1:06 PM


Re: Herbs, Medicine, or Natural
But, you know, the more I think about it ... maybe if I believe, REALLY BELIEVE, then that cyanide I just swallowed won't hurt me!

Also, if I concentrate enough, I can actually move metal objects around. It's only a matter of time before I can actually move those metal objects without physical contact.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by molbiogirl, posted 08-21-2007 1:06 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 92 of 304 (417562)
08-21-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Taz
08-21-2007 9:00 PM


Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Well, Taz, I skimmed pubmed just now and found research on food allergies (peanuts, etc.) and the short answer is yes. Folks can inherit allergies.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 9:00 PM Taz has not yet responded

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 304 (417582)
08-23-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Taz
08-21-2007 9:00 PM


Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
As Molbiogirl said allergies can be inherited. I have no known allergies but my wife has a minor allergy (erythema) to the adhesives in medical tape and band aides. My son recently showed signs he has her allergy and my daughter has exhibited no sign of this fairly minor yet odd allergy. Its also fairly common to find offspring who share their parents allergies. Some attribute this to transmissions from the mother in utero, but most studies disagree. If it were passed on in that manner a child wouldn't require the sensitizing exposure. For example, the first time in your life you get stung, you don't go into Anaphylactic shock, the second time is when you have to worry. Elderly who have never had allergies in their lives also develop spontaneous allergies.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 9:00 PM Taz has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 337 days)
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 94 of 304 (417584)
08-23-2007 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by nator
08-21-2007 10:52 AM


Re: Muscle testing
That whole article pretty much describes how I felt about my experience.
It is amazing that sites like this: http://www.kinesiology.net/ can exist, if it is all fake.

When I confronted my "health care professional" about it, she got very defensive, and said she doesn't have to explain herself, that she gives lectures on the stuff, and can recommend some books to me.

I was like, in my head, you absolutely have to explain yourself to me.
I don't think I will be seeing her anymore.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nator, posted 08-21-2007 10:52 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 5:12 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

anastasia
Member (Idle past 3907 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 95 of 304 (417655)
08-23-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by riVeRraT
08-23-2007 11:39 AM


Re: Muscle testing
Did you have your ears checked? :)

To answer your OP, I at one point dabbled in homeopathy, but never as a remedy, only a prevention.

There were certain herbs or supplements that seemed genuine and beneficial, but it is hard to say because I also kept to a strict healthy diet then, went to the gym regularly, drank tons of fluids, and didn't smoke.

One of the problems is that it is all a money making scheme. You take this or that, they tell you it has to be a better quality, or has to be taken with something else to achieve benefit. The more you research it, the more conflicting opinions you get. You can spend a ton of money and still be confused or uncertain about what you are doing. Occasionally there is a negative effect or warning assosciated with an herbal that you don't know about before hand.

All in all, it is a little less scary than taking tons of drugs or eating junk food, or being exposed to all the toxins in the environment, but you can go crazy worrying about it all.

I believe in eating fresh and balanced meals, excercise, water intake, the usual. I do like some supplements, but I would definitely go to a 'real' doctor for proper diagnosis of illness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 08-23-2007 11:39 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by mike the wiz, posted 08-23-2007 5:42 PM anastasia has not yet responded
 Message 104 by molbiogirl, posted 08-23-2007 7:30 PM anastasia has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4621
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 96 of 304 (417658)
08-23-2007 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by anastasia
08-23-2007 5:12 PM


Treat the CAUSE?
This is the key here. Preventative measures. The bible shows us a God who doesn't say; "sin now, fix it later". It shows us a God who stops the CAUSE of the problem, NOT the effects. Whereas the world deals in effects.

People like Shraff want you to be worldly - and accept those worldly toxins, and sin-agents so you can then go to the doctor, and shraff can say; "see - we can fix the problem, not God, he can't fix anything".

You see - this perversely puts the emphasis on God - when infact many illnesses and sin come because we don't obey God and we sin. Sexually transmitted diseases for example.

An example;

The worldly: "Sure - have sex - then we'll just abort, no problem."

See - treating the effect, rather than the cause. Whereas God would say;

"Do not fornicate - keep the principles of marriage and the family".

You see the problem. Satan is the agent that says "Do X then you will get Y."

And when you get Z, satan says; "see - God can't do anything right".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 5:12 PM anastasia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 08-23-2007 6:24 PM mike the wiz has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 304 (417659)
08-23-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
08-21-2007 11:10 AM


Re: Not a Contest
quote:
We don't have to choose only one type of health care to manage our health. We do what works for us, but proper nutrition is considered an important part of healing.

Sure, but proper nutrition isn't seperate from conventional medicine at all. In fact, the reason we know the "how and why" of antioxidants' healthful properties is through careful scientific study.

If there's anything that doctors and the government health agencies harp on constantly it is to eat properly, exercise, don't smoke, don't drink too much, get enough sleep, and manage stress.

Nobody needs an "alternative healthcare provider" to tell them any of this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 08-21-2007 11:10 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 6:00 PM nator has responded
 Message 110 by purpledawn, posted 08-23-2007 8:41 PM nator has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 304 (417660)
08-23-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mike the wiz
08-21-2007 1:34 PM


Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
quote:
Think about it. You say you will only accept that which is evidenced, yet here, when somebody only has their testimony as evidence, even if their testimony is true, it is unacceptable.

There's no way of determining if their testimony is true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mike the wiz, posted 08-21-2007 1:34 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3907 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 99 of 304 (417661)
08-23-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by nator
08-23-2007 5:57 PM


Re: Not a Contest
nator writes:

If there's anything that doctors and the government health agencies harp on constantly it is to eat properly, exercise, don't smoke, don't drink too much, get enough sleep, and manage stress.

Nobody needs an "alternative healthcare provider" to tell them any of this.

True, but the alternative health people somehow provide the mental support or whatever that gets people into action.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by nator, posted 08-23-2007 5:57 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by nator, posted 08-23-2007 6:27 PM anastasia has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 304 (417663)
08-23-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by mike the wiz
08-21-2007 11:23 AM


Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
quote:
The picture that forms.
What is that exactly?

It is kind of like this, Mike.

We observe that milkmaids that contracted and survived cowpox seemed to have gained the benefit of an immunity or resistance to the much more deadly smallpox.

It eventually occurs to people that maybe getting a weakened form of a similar disease makes a person immune or resistant to that disease.

That idea is tested, and it seems to work very well, although not perfectly.

Thus, the vaccination was born.

quote:
That under certain conditioned circumstances, you get certain results, based on the conditions ONLY. Anything outside those tests, are not under evaluation, nor are they regulated by potentially faulty implications.

In the above example, what are some "potentially faulty implications" that might occur?

Should we discount the effectiveness, overall, of vaccinations due to the exceptions, as you suggest?

quote:
Such as;

If God answered prayer, then he'd get better.


I am positive that lots of people, probably the vast majority, prayed to God to cure them of smallpox, or keep them from catching it at all. God ignored the pleas of around 600 million people who died from the disease from the 18th century into the 20th century.

Isn't it strange that people's prayers weren't answered until science developed a vaccine to prevent people from getting it?

quote:
What is actually proved, is that the experiments work under their own rules. But you Shraff, blindly treat them as some kind of unbreakable absolutely conclusive activity.

No, I don't. Stop erecting strawmen.

I'll repeat what I already wrote and you apparently never read:

Mike wrote:

quote:
Does this mean, in your opinion, it will certainly work on an individual with one of these problems?

Nator replied:

No.

But it has been demonstrated that is will help a majority of people with these problems better than placebo.

quote:
Science is tentative is it not? Even the scientists must agree with everything I have said. They know they have to.

They would not agree with strawmen and faulty logic, mike.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by mike the wiz, posted 08-21-2007 11:23 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by mike the wiz, posted 08-23-2007 7:38 PM nator has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 304 (417664)
08-23-2007 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Taz
08-21-2007 9:00 PM


allergies and heredity
quote:
I wonder... does anyone here know if being allergic to certain things, like strawberry and dog, is genetic or not?

Yes.

Allergies are an abnormal immune response, and the immune system can certainly be affected by heredity.

In fact, left-handedness is associated with a greater propensity to have allergies, so that tends to support the heredity idea, too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 9:00 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 304 (417665)
08-23-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by mike the wiz
08-23-2007 5:42 PM


Re: Treat the CAUSE?
quote:
People like Shraff want you to be worldly - and accept those worldly toxins, and sin-agents so you can then go to the doctor, and shraff can say; "see - we can fix the problem, not God, he can't fix anything".

What kind of crap are you spouting about me now, mike?

That has to be one of the worst misrepresentations of my position I have ever read here on EvC, and that is saying a lot.

Clearly, being a believer makes you a really dishonest debator.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by mike the wiz, posted 08-23-2007 5:42 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by mike the wiz, posted 08-23-2007 7:57 PM nator has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 103 of 304 (417666)
08-23-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by anastasia
08-23-2007 6:00 PM


Re: Not a Contest
quote:
True, but the alternative health people somehow provide the mental support or whatever that gets people into action.

Really?

I'd like to see the stats on that.

Mostly, I think that the alternative health people are fleecing the public with expensive, mostly worthless (sometimes harmful, and very occasionally slightly helpful) quack remedies and a lot of woo-woo, feel-good, meaningless jargon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 6:00 PM anastasia has not yet responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 104 of 304 (417671)
08-23-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by anastasia
08-23-2007 5:12 PM


Homeopathy
I at one point dabbled in homeopathy, but never as a remedy, only a prevention.

Homeopathy is bunk.

As I pointed out upthread, homeopathic "medicines" are tap water.
The typical dilution is 30X. That means one part "medicine" to 100 to the power of 30 parts water.

A real world analogy:
A drop in a fishtank? Nope. Too concentrated.
A drop in an Olympic swimming pool? Nope. Too concentrated.
A drop in Lake Michigan? Nope. Too concentrated.
A drop in the Atlantic Ocean? Nope. Too concentrated.
A drop in a pool of water the size of our solar system? Yep!

Practitioners claim that the water retains the "memory" of the "medicine". Horse apples!

If that were true, that very same water would have much stronger memories of feces and urine. Mmmmmmmmm!

(Credit where credit is due: Dr. Richard Dawkins used this analogy in The Enemies of Reason.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 5:12 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 7:54 PM molbiogirl has responded
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 08-25-2007 10:34 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4621
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 105 of 304 (417672)
08-23-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
08-23-2007 6:14 PM


Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Isn't it strange that people's prayers weren't answered until science developed a vaccine to prevent people from getting it?

No Shraff - you couldn't possibly know of those who were healed of it, or were prevented from getting it. Nice try.

I am positive that lots of people, probably the vast majority, prayed to God to cure them of smallpox, or keep them from catching it at all. God ignored the pleas of around 600 million people who died from the disease from the 18th century into the 20th century.

Incorrect induction. First you need to prove who prayed. Then you need to know their destiny. Then you need to know who had believing faith, and not doubting desperation. Then you need to know if God considered them genuine followers. Then you need to know the figure that God saved - for all you know, the rest of the planet. None of this information you have - therefore your argument from ignorance isn't special information to me.

They would not agree with strawmen and faulty logic, mike.

It seems you have ignored most of my all-refuting facts of irrefutableness.:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 08-23-2007 6:14 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by nator, posted 08-23-2007 8:34 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

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