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Author Topic:   Cosmos with Neil DeGrass Tyson
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 31 of 206 (721846)
03-12-2014 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by roxrkool
03-11-2014 11:26 PM


Re: Nicely done
roxrkool,
I concur. My 9 year old daughter and I watched the show on Monday night. She asked a lot of questions as the show progressed which is always a good sign that this show apeals to the young and old alike. She asked about aliens, why Voyager had a gold disc with pictures of humans and other things on it, etc.
I liked the revived show with Tyson. He brought a down-to-earth feel. Though I still believe Carl did it best. Look forward to future episodes.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 206 (721852)
03-12-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
03-12-2014 1:34 PM


Re: Do you guys know Brian Cox?
The story of Bruno does not admit that it was more his pantheistic views that earned him the ire of the Catholic Church and the Inquisition. While this is a fact, the Catholic Church ensured to include his belief in other worlds in his sentence of guilt, so it seems they were not oblivious to this fact and wanted to include it within his death sentence.
I'm not sure what to make of this complaint because Bruno's pantheistic views don't justify 8 years of imprisonment and turning Giordano over for burning either. And we also know from Galileo's later indictment that claims that the RCC was tolerant of Copernicus's views aren't defensible either.
It was all based upon thoughts and ideas why he was executed, so it still serves the purpose of showing how the religious institutions used ideas to have individuals put to death
I think the spirit of that principle was covered. Dr. Tyson talked about the thought police, and the fact that Bruno was no scientist.
As far as criticism, I have been a NDT fan ever since I saw his spots on 'The Universe' a show that I consider to be a History Channel highlight. But I did find the Dr Tyson's presentation to be a bit stilted, or at least, something less than seamless in a lot of the spots. Those stilted spots don't include the places where he talks about Dr. Sagan.
And if we are picking nits, I didn't like the ship design all that much either.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 33 of 206 (721881)
03-13-2014 7:39 AM


Poor Job
Took me a few days, but I just finished the first episode last night. My opinion is probably an outlier, but I thought it was really lame. Bad and misleading animations (e.g., Big Bang, Jupiter's red spot, Earth and moon's formation, the story of Giordano Bruno). Way oversimplified explanations. I don't mind simplification for laypeople, but how watered down does science have to become before it's wrong. Is this targeted at 8-year olds?
I liked the tribute to Sagan at the end. Did anyone else notice that Sagan's wife is one of the producers? That may have been her next to Sagan in one of the shots, but it went by too fast to be sure.
--Percy

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 206 (721891)
03-13-2014 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
03-13-2014 7:39 AM


Re: Poor Job
Big Bang, Jupiter's red spot, Earth and moon's formation, the story of Giordano Bruno
I caught the moon issue and I understand what your objection to Bruno is although I don't share it. I'm not even sure that the impact-theory for forming the moon is the only accepted possibility.
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/.../lect/moon/moon_formation.html
quote:
Five serious theories have been proposed for the formation of the Moon (not counting the one involving green cheese):
But what was the Jupiter Red Spot error? What was the BBT error. NDT has no business making those.
But now that you mention it, I thought the attempt to show Jupiter's surface was bad because most likely there isn't anything firm you could stand on.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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 Message 33 by Percy, posted 03-13-2014 7:39 AM Percy has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 206 (721893)
03-13-2014 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 8:56 AM


Re: Poor Job
... What was the BBT error. ...
What I took away from this was that it was an explosion, there was no mention of expansion or inflation.
Nor any discussion of brane-theory (but then I wouldn't expect a review of alternate theories)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 36 of 206 (721896)
03-13-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 8:56 AM


Re: Poor Job
The problem with the Great Red Spot animation was endemic to most of the animations: greatly accelerated timescale. I think at least some mention was required that these events do not happen this fast. The moon wasn't built in a day.
The moon animation was unrealistic in the extreme - boulders the size of Rhode Island colliding with the infant moon at velocities of miles/second and just sticking to it without vaporizing or at least getting pulverized.
The problem with the Big Bang animation was equally bad because it reinforced the myth that it was some kind of explosion.
I liked the Bruno story, but the primitive animation was painful. Reminded me of bad Japanese cartoons.
I didn't like the original Cosmos series, either. I didn't see it when it first came out, but I tried to watch it a decade ago and found it dated (not his fault) and hokey and, given that I wasn't learning anything, not worth my time. I gave up after a few episodes.
I'm not asking people to agree with me. I'm frequently an outlier in these kinds of things. The original Cosmos series is cited by many as having sparked their interest in science. Many science people love Scoobie Doo because he debunks unscientific nonsense, but I find the animation and the writing bad, and the plots worse, not to mention numbingly predictable.
--Percy

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 206 (721904)
03-13-2014 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
03-13-2014 9:29 AM


Re: Poor Job
I liked the Bruno story, but the primitive animation was painful. Reminded me of bad Japanese cartoons.
After I posted I realized you were talking about the animation technique more than the events. I do wish it had been better. This is one place where it is possible to out-do Sagan's series. Probably a time and money issue.
There is a lot of heat on the webs about the scientific accuracy of the show, with some of the critics being somewhat off target. But the story of Bruno seems to draw the most attention. I've even read posts defending the treatment of Bruno because he was a troublemaker and not a scientist.
The problem with the Great Red Spot animation...
The problem with the Big Bang animation was equally bad because it reinforced the myth that it was some kind of explosion.
I didn't have any personal problem with the speed up because I know that without it there would be nothing much to see. I don't think I've ever seen a red spot video that was not sped up. I filled in the slowdown narrative mentally. I suspect you are right about it misleading lots of people.
I think the BB explosion problem is unavoidable without adding even more distortion just for the purpose of making a point. Viewed from an extra-dimensional perspective, wouldn't expanding from atom size in a billion-zillionth of a second look like an explosion? Some artificial slowdown would have been required... In fact I'd argue that the animation was slowed down.
I'm not asking people to agree with me.
I can easily see the stuff bothering you being an issue. I would have liked to see the Bruno stuff done with live actors with a little CGI for the space exploring parts. But the fact that they told the Bruno story at all is a plus for me.
Are you planning to watch the next one?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : add some prepositions: I am going to start using preview.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 03-13-2014 9:29 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 03-13-2014 11:16 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 38 of 206 (721906)
03-13-2014 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 10:04 AM


Re: Poor Job
NoNukes writes:
Are you planning to watch the next one?
My TiVo's set up to record the series, but given that I'm reacting to it pretty much the same way as the original it seems possible that I'll end up watching little of it. Hard to say. The first episode was an overview, maybe it gets more informative and accurate and less "Oh, wow, the universe!" in later episodes.
It's a rare science documentary that tells someone who keeps up with science something they don't already know, though sometimes the animations are incredibly helpful in visualizing something you already knew about but had trouble picturing. That Grand Canyon documentary someone posted somewhere in the Why the Flood Never Happened thread had a beautiful animation of cutback of a river through a landscape, and of mountains eroding to plains. When I watch science programs on TV I'm mainly interested in something well explained so that I can improve my own explanations.
--Percy

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 39 of 206 (721909)
03-13-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
03-13-2014 9:29 AM


Re: Poor Job
I'm not asking people to agree with me. I'm frequently an outlier in these kinds of things.
Make that 2 outliers.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 206 (721910)
03-13-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
03-13-2014 11:16 AM


Re: Poor Job
When I watch science programs on TV I'm mainly interested in something well explained so that I can improve my own explanations.
Don't you think that'd be too advanced to get the kind of ratings that they need for this show?

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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 41 of 206 (721911)
03-13-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
03-13-2014 9:29 AM


Re: Poor Job
I find the animation and the writing bad, and the plots worse, not to mention numbingly predictable.
For what? Scooby Doo or Cosmos? Surely you don't mean Scooby Doo!
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 42 of 206 (721917)
03-13-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by herebedragons
03-13-2014 11:50 AM


Re: Poor Job
For what? Scooby Doo or Cosmos?
Both have the same kind of cheap moving cardboard figure "animation" imho.
Curiously I keep thinking of Kramer ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 206 (721932)
03-13-2014 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
03-13-2014 11:16 AM


Re: Poor Job
The first episode was an overview, maybe it gets more informative and accurate and less "Oh, wow, the universe!" in later episodes.
I'm sticking with it for now. I don't think my standards for watching are all that high, and as far as timing goes, I just watch it on the internet at my convenience. I'm a sucker for 'physics TV'.
As for the original, I watched it on video decades after it came out. Unless I'm mistaken, you can watch it all 13 episodes here.
Attention Required! | Cloudflare
I'm mainly interested in something well explained so that I can improve my own explanations.
I can dig it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 03-13-2014 11:16 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 44 of 206 (721938)
03-13-2014 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
03-13-2014 11:16 AM


Great Job
We watch it because we are all science nuts. We know this stuff already and we know a whole lot the technical details. But remember who the target audience is. It ain't us.
We don't teach calculus to 8th graders and we don't teach Quantum Mechanics to HS Juniors. (I've been out of it for so long, hell, maybe they do these days.) There will time, and motivation, to correct the details once the interest is ignited.
Don't look at this through your eyes. Look at it through the eyes of your 12 year old granddaughter.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 45 of 206 (721940)
03-13-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by AZPaul3
03-13-2014 4:06 PM


Re: Great Job
Don't look at this through your eyes. Look at it through the eyes of your 12 year old granddaughter.
The errors in the show are even worse when viewed from this perspective. Children of that age may not be able to tell the difference between artistic license and scientific accuracy. This may be their only exposure to this area of science their entire lives. Do you really want them to come away with the impression that the Big Bang was just like an explosion, or that the Moon formed exactly like they showed it?
Also, being treated like a 12 year old is why I find it hard to enjoy the show . . . but I still have my DVR set to record all the episodes, and I will watch them.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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