Importance of Original Sin

You might enjoy the books from Kurt Kaltreider.

I would probably guess most Christians probably would not think along those lines. Satan was always depicted as the malevolent entity that was attempting to usurp god's power.Although interestingly, your definition is more in line with how Angels are depicted in the Bible. In most cases, whenever god needed something to be done on Earth, his agent would often be one of the angels.

It depends on how they were educated or brought up as well as whether or not they have actually read the Bible.Go read Genesis 2&3 and try to find any indication that it shows the serpent as Satan.I was born into a devout southern Christian family, educated in a Christian school, helped found new churches and even build them, taught youth and adult Sunday school and I am webmaster for several Christian churches now. But I was a product of a chapter of Club Christian that doesn't ask folk to check their brains at the door.

There is no growing if death is working. You are growing into death.Man is dependent upon God like he is dependent upon breathing. You do not graduate from breathing. You cannot boast that you have been breathing for many years and now no longer need to breath. To do so is to invite death.The tree of life shows that man is dependent upon God. The tree of the knowledge of evil is a tree of death because it leads to independence from the source of life.Man can never afford to be so grown up that he is independent from God. Man can never graduate from dependence upon God.What does it look like to have a man step by step live by God? When a man lives on the life of God each moment, never independent, what does it look like ?For this we have the greatest expression in the Son of God - Jesus Christ. Here is a man of divine life. Here is the greatest freedom. And here is the power of life to the extent that He is indestructible. He is free from sin and death. I believe there was a before Adam. Relevant to the subject at hand, the before Adam being which took the lead to be independent from God became Satan.All rebellions and seeking independence from the Source of life is summed up in this repository and will share the miserable destiny of that grand leader.All those coming back to God in dependence upon the Source of life will share the glorious destiny of the Son of God - the "last Adam" who also "the second man". That is the second and final head of a new humanity of humans united with the God.The consummation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the lake of fire. The consummation of the tree of life is in the city of life, the New Jerusalem.These two lines run through the whole Bible and reach two conclusions.
Independence from God leads to death and the second death, a lake of fire.
Dependence upon God and God's life lead to a city of living water, the New Jersusalem. Adam tried shift blame - "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and I ate." (Gen. 3:12) That didn't absolve him of responsibility.Eve attempted to shift blame - "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." (v.13)That didn't absolve her of responsibility. So the complaint that the Bible is teaching some kind of loose disregard for personal responsibility is simply wrong.Didn't God place upon Cain a sense of personal responsibility even after the fall ? "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and his desires is for you, but you must rule over him." (Gen. 4:7) So sin entering into man does not dissolve personal responsibility.
And receiving a Savior to be saved from both the guilt and power of sin neither absolves believers from personal responsibility.Cooperation with God's process of salvation is neither disregard for personal responsibility.

I am. I have.Your hypothesis is therefor false.

A better analogy - the analogy that the Bible itself uses - is graduating from mother's milk.

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Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

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1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

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I've never said that the Bible teaches disregard for personal responsibility. I'm saying that you do. Genesis 4:7 - your own quote - doesn't have sin "entering into man". It has sin "crouching at the door". The imagery is clearly a threat, not a fait accompli.And don't forget the end of that verse: "... but you must rule over him." You can't rule over (personified) sin that has already entered.

Notice that there is no graduating from EATING. There is advancing in maturity from MILK to MEAT there. But the writer is not saying they no longer need FOOD.Besides, both the milk and the meat there are the word of God and the accompanying spiritual teaching.The phrase in verse 12 before "the rudiments of the beginning of the oracles of God " prove that the progression from milk to solid food (ie. meat) all concerns "the oracles of God.". He is not saying that they should graduate from the oracles of God but only from its "rudiments".Milk = the beginning, the rudiments of the oracles of God.
Meat or solid food = more advanced teaching sharpening their discriminating - "the word of righteousness". Paul is using the analogy to speak of spiritual life. As he grows as a Christian his attraction from charismatic gifts advances to to agape love.Paul uses the analogy of natural life, life with which all men are naturally born, as a parallel to spiritual life. That is the divine life received in becoming a believer in Jesus, which life ALSO is to grow and mature in the church life.No thought of graduating FROM God is at all expressed anywhere in that chapter or in First Corinthians or any other New Testament book.God wanted man to be dependent upon God for God is the eternal source of life. But that man would grow in both the expression of eternal life and the responsibility that life implies is evident.I think that Adam committed to manage the garden and the earth, would grow to manage probably the solar system as the need arose and even beyond.I think the universe is created for the kingdom of God. Growth in expression and responsibility, though ever dependent upon God, I think is what is and was the plan of God. Well, that is wishful thinking on your part. That is that I have no sense or little sense of personal responsibility. Which one of us is teaching about the kingdom of God ? Any " kingdom " implies responsibility. I'd have to look up "fait accompli" as to what that means.What do you think "crouching at the door" means ? Which "door" is indicated? I cannot locate a room or a house. So identify what "door" sin is crouching at.I agree that you do not have an explicit reference to sin "entering into man." But you have to fight harder to prove nothing happened within man than to prove that something did.Besides the symbol of FRUIT on TREES definitely speaks to something getting INSIDE of man. As the nutritionists say "You are what you eat." So what Adam ate got into him and constituted him with an element which he took inwardly.You have man before TWO sources in the universe - God and Satan.
This made a triangular situation with man in the middle to choose.
Both were a matter of someone uniting with Adam. Both were a matter of someone entering into man. " ... sin is crouching at the door, and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him." (3:7) What was once OUTSIDE of man was not WITHIN man. In this case God's enemy Satan and his nature of sin. The door there is no longer a door outside of man. The evil spirit has already gotten through that initial door. The door here in (Genesis 4:7 is the door deeper into his being leading to his deciding and choosing and will. Probably also a door to his conscience to dull it, smother it, as was the case - "Am I my brother's keeper?" (v.9) Indwelling sin was making deeper inroads into Cain's being even killing his conscience. You know from experience that sin in you can be restricted to a degree. YOU often put on the breaks and say "No, I will not go farther even though I am tempted."So to some degree at least haven't you "ruled" over sin? You'd be far worse of had you never learned to apply the breaks.Civilization, does mean men get together and decide to put on the moral breaks. And those who do not "rule" over their sinning to no degree whatsoever, we usually put away. They might get executed too.God knew that Cain could not completely rule over sin. But He had to exhort Cain to apply some breaks and as best he could restrict sin. Makes perfect sense.Because real sins made real guilt, even though some limitation is exercised, there is still the need for an offering to approach the righteous and holy God. And that is why the story begins with Cain and Abel offering to God to worship God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The point here is that growing up is a good thing. It is not a "curse" or a "fall". It's a natural development which God expects of us. The story of Adam and Eve symbolizes that development. I haven't said anything about a graduation "from" God. In our secular lives we (hopefully) never stop learning either but that doesn't mean we should never graduate from high school. You keep saying what "God wanted" but the scriptures don't agree with you. God wouldn't have thrown the hatchlings out of the nest if He wanted them to be dependent on Him. On the contrary, dominion implies obedience. Democracy implies responsibility. It means a threat. Sin is outside the door, not inside with its fingers around your throat. (That would be a fait accompli.) Look at the door metaphor as used elsewhere in the Bible:

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Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

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Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

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Both good and evil are waiting outside the door. The choice is yours but you have to eat the fruit to know the difference. Exactly. What got into Adam was the knowledge of good and evil - the knowledge of good and evil, not evil itself and not just evil. Of course. That's the point of the story. We are all responsible individually for ruling over sin. We are our own doorkeepers.

That growing is desirable was never in dispute. But God is eternal life. From eternal life man can never graduate.Becoming independent from God is not growth but degradation eventually ending in death. When Adam sought independence from God Adam necessarily became joined to Satan. That was a curse for man. That was the first fall of man. Latter in early Genesis there are a few more decisive fallings away from God and blessing. The legitimacy of graduating from kindergarten, or junior high, or high school, of college, or graduate school, or post doctoral is not at all a bad thing. This knowledge makes one more and more independent.But to seek independence from God is to seek death. For God is the source of life. And this also God told the Israelites in Jeremiah - "Be appalled at this, O heavens, and be horrified; ... declares Jehovah.

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For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, to hew out for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns which hold no water." (Jer. 2:12,13) To forsake God the source and fountain of life and blessing is one evil, even an evil perpetrated upon one's self and one's neighbor. The other evil is to attempt to replace God. The replacements are inadequate, like broken cisterns which cannot hold water.To seek to be independent of God will only lead to attempts to replace God. And these replacements will eventually turn out to be inadequate.However, God did not force Adam to partake of the tree of life. And God did not force the fruit of the tree of life into Adam. God set Adam before two sources represented by two trees. He did not even command Adam to partake of the tree of life. It was there available in the center of the garden.Adam had his free will to choose. God does not force man to choose Him. There is no "cage door." The "cage door" in some people's minds is open. He says in essence:"If you want Me you can take Me. If you do not want Me you are free to forget about Me and go your own way."This is the attitude of a great heart. A great person would not force himself upon you. A great person gives you freedom to choose him or reject him. And this is how we should see Adam and his wife before the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Adam made a bad choice. But today we can choose life in today's "tree of life" Jesus the Son of God. Scripture does show God wanted man to choose Him and to choose the tree of life. Why do you think God did not want man to choose Him? Deuteronomy 30:19 - " I call heaven and earth to witness against you today: I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life that you and your seed may live." Twisting Scripture around your kind of logic is dangerous. You become very self deceived.The tree of life was in the middle of the garden - "And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden ..." (Gen. 2:9) If you disagree and point out that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was also there I would respond that there was an explicit warning and command not to choose it. "And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:15,16) God wanted man to freely eat of any tree in the garden EXCEPT the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the tree of life was in the middle of the garden.Throughout the Bible God ever exhorts man to choose Himself and to choose life in Him - " ... therefore choose life that you and your seed may live." Christ came that we might have life and have it more abundantly - "The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly." (John 10:10) God's attitude has never changed. Dominion implied obedience and submission. However to do so because we are attracted by the sheer beauty and preciousness of the King is not to obey only from duty. It is out of love and because there is no better life.This King is a Divine Life which imparts Himself into man to reign from within. And Christ demonstrated what such submission to His Father looked like. It is glorious. It is majesty. It is indestructible. It is filled with love and mercy. Yet it also manifests righteousness.We are captured by His beauty and not by religious duty. This goes back to God the King not coercing man to come under His reign. The wise man can see the precious value of living one with God. When Adam and Eve were being enticed to eat the forbidden fruit, at that time, sin was outside of man. After the eating, the sin was inside.Now you have to realize that Satan's is in the outer part of man seeking to work his way deeper and deeper inward. God through being born again installs Himself as eternal life in the nucleus of man's being and is ever working towards the outside.Satan works from the outside IN. God wants you to take Christ as life. Then Christ's sanctification process is ever working from the inside outward to the circumference.But the pertinent point is that once the fruit was EATEN, the sin was truly in Adam and even in his two sons after him. You would think that by seeing that it was FRUIT to be EATEN as the issue, that one would grasp this. " ... in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (2:17) Those are interesting passages which could merit much discussion in their own right.But I think the simplicity of the Genesis account is being missed by you. God warned Adam that in the day that he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely DIE. Now it is clear that Adam's descendents one by one DIED.It is not the case that each one of them went BACK into the garden to repeat exactly the prohibition of eating from that tree as their forefather had done. It was enough that they were his CHILDREN. And one by one it says " ... and he died ... and he died ... and he died." Right ?So whatever got into Adam causing Adam to DIE was also in his descendents causing THEM to die.Enter the Apostle Paul - "But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, EVEN over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, ..." (Romans 5:14a) So what had been internalized by Adam and Eve was passed on to their descendents, namely sin and death.Now I would grant you that this does not mean that there is in the Bible no outward objective existence of Satan. To the degree that the Bible still depicts Satan as outside of man, we do see him out there.But in the another sense upon eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil Satan's nature entered into man. And from there he is crouching.The seeking opportunity that God describes in Genesis 4:7 is strongly paralleled in Romans chapter 7.Compare:1.) Genesis 4:7 - " ... sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you ..." 2.) Romans 7:11 - "For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me." "Seizing ... opportunity" and "deceived me" are related as a personified evil being. " ... it is no longer I that do it but sin that DWELLS IN ME." (v.17) This is much the same as "and his desire is for you" in Genesis 4. "I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind" (v.23) Sin is in the sinner's members waging war against his mind and the moral goodness with which the human mind was designed. Romans 7:8 - "But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind ..." Again, sin personified seeking opportunity and working out coveting in the sinner. " ... for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do." (v.15)This personified sinful nature has a will of its own. It can only be restricted to some degree. No man can completely escape its contrariness to work its own will. " ... for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not." (v.18) A contrary will works out against the human will. It is noble that man has the will to do good. Even that he has a knowledge of good and evil is something of his conscience functioning. The problem is that the power of indwelling sin is stronger.Paul ends with the cry that he needs deliverance from "the body of this death." "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord." (v.25) "The body of this death" started with Adam and as passed on down to all descendents of Adam. So I would say that the "door" is that which connects the fallen flesh of the body of this death in Cain to the emotion, mind, and will of his more inward part - his soul. You agree then. That was the advertizing of the tree - that it was only the knowledge of good and evil. What the truth was that DEATH entered. Sin entered. Satan entered.Now I must go and cannot elaborate further at this time.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There are two puzzling mysteries in Genesis:1.) Why is there a lying enemy of God in a paradise garden in Eden ? ?2.) If the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil sounds so positive WHY did eating of it yield such bad results ?These are not easy questions to answer. But I will offer some opinion about the second question. Why does such a positive sounding tree bring such problem to Adam ?Like the book of Job, which is an older book than Genesis, Genesis seems to contain a contest between God and His enemy. The two trees in the garden really are associated with each - the tree of life signifies God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil signifies death.Now some could protest - "But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ALSO represents God because Genesis 3:22 says "And Jehovah God said, Behold the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever ..." It is a good point that the tree of knowledge of good and evil seems quite associated with the nature of God.It could be that the name of the tree was given by God's enemy Satan and not by God. You know that in the book of Job Satan challenged God. Satan told God that Job only served God because of material blessings and health. Satan dared God to remove these from Job and he would see Job curse his God to his face. This was a challenge and a contest between God and Satan.The situation of Genesis 3 seems much the same. What may have happened is that God said in essence - "Okay I will create a new being and place him neutral between Myself and you Satan, and let him choose. We two will be represented by two trees. I will be represented by a tree of life and you by a tree of death."Satan may have said "Oh, no, no, no! A tree of death sounds too negative. It should be called something nice, Ummmm, call it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Then maybe God said:"Okay, according to your idea, your tree will be called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, I will WARN man that to eat of it will bring DEATH."Now this is my imagination and I have no Scripture to prove that this conversation took place. And I could be wrong. But my bases for relating this is the close similarity between the situation of God and Satan with Job in the middle, (Job) reminds me of the God and the serpent with Adam and Eve in the middle (Genesis).So the advertizing of the tree of DEATH sounded good, sounded related to God's nature, sounded like something to be desired. "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes; and that the tree was to be desired to make oneself wise, she took of its fruit and ate ... " (Gen. 3:6a) The tree of life was simple with a simple name - of life.
The tree of death was complicated advertizing. It actually was a "tree of death" with a more noble sounding name.It actually turned out to be a tree of JOINING Satan.
It turned out to be a tree of REBELLION against God.
It was really a tree of launching out in INDEPENDENCE from God.Adam did die in spite of the LIE that the serpent told, that he would not die.
So it also was a tree of a LIE.G.H. Pember who wrote "Earth's Earliest Ages" also suggests that the serpent was very beautiful and not ugly. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Well, the God character is kinda essential to the fable and so needs to be there. Why the God character lied is unknown.But why the God character lied is not really important since the God character is a kind of bumbling, not too bright OJT sorta fella but overall likeable.And of course Eden was NOT a paradise. In fact the Adam character is put in the Garden to work and maintain it. There weren't many bad results beyond those mentioned, and it is those things mentioned that are the whole point of the story and in return mankind received a great blessing and awakening, the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the ability to judge our behavior.The story is a "Just So" story, explaining why we fear snakes, why we kill them (even beneficial ones) on sight, why unlike other animals the don't have legs, why childbirth seems more painful and difficult that for other animals, why we farm instead of just being hunter gatherers and the really important one, why women were just chattel and subject to the man.

Let's look now at these two fine specimens of a "door" analogy being used by Christ in both cases: "Matthew 7:7,8 we may consider part of "kingdom of the heaven" teaching involving who the kingdom people should deal with others. This section starts with verse 1 and really concludes with verse 12.Verse 1 - "Do not judge, that you be not judged... etc" begins this section where Christ is teaching His disciples how to deal with other people. It continues with advice on removing their own large beam from their eye before attempting to remove the splinter from another's eye. (vs. 3-5)Jesus goes on about not giving holy things to dogs and not casting pearls before swine. (vs.6). While many consider this teaching simply an insult against those who reject the Gospel teaching, surprisingly it is also really about how to care for people. Man is infested with a God hating and God opposing filthy nature. And the idea is that in caring for others the kingdom people must sometime not allow the opposers of the kingdom of God to be eaten up by their own evil natures. "Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the hogs, lest they trample them with their feet, and turn and tear you." (v.7) In caring for people the kingdom people have to wise as to discern what others are able to take. And caring for them includes not allowing them to be just eaten up by their own God opposing nature. The pearls stand for the experiences of God. The holy things stand for the truth of God's word. The evil nature in some people is totally out of control and being presented with "pearls" and "holy things" of the people of the kingdom, they will trample them and turn to attack those who offered them.Now immediately after this we have Jesus encouraging the disciples to ask, and to seek, and to knock (for wisdom in dealing with others). "Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you." (v.7) The context is asking, seeking, and knocking for wisdom in how to care for other people. God will give, as a good father, the "good things" pertaining to how to deal with people.This section concludes with a THEREFORE to sum up what has been spoken from 7:1 through 7:11 - "Therefore all that you wish men would do to you, so also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets." (v.12)The overall rule of Christ is how to care for others is summarized in considering how you yourself would want to be cared for. This is the intrinsic flavor of the law and the prophets, says Jesus.Now, to the issue of the door in verse 7. Does this "door" pertain to something totally outside of man's being and leading to the inside of man's being ?I would not argue that it could not mean that. But I think a better understanding is a more explicitly Christian one. To enter into the kingdom of God one must be born again - (John 3:6) - "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."So to receive the new birth is to receive the new life - the divine life which is Christ Himself. This Person is born into the receiver as a SEED. He is mingled with the believer's innermost being. His intention is to grow and spread, to advance and expand, to more and more infuse the personality of the one so BORN anew.So the asking of God, the seeking for God, and the knocking on the door is really a petitioning of God that this life germ, this divine seed planted within may dispense into the soul more of its influence.I concede that to the seeker and knocker and asker it may seem that He is receiving some blessing from outside coming into the "door". But actually since this teaching is to the disciples the door is from the innermost spirit where the seed of God has been implanted into the soul where He desires to transform the believer more and more into the image of Christ.It is the door to the innermost being of the believer leading to a more outer area of his being - his human soul.We are in three parts - "And the God of peace sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23) The innermost being is the human spirit. The area of man's being surrounding that is the human soul. And the area outermost surrounding both is the human body. So Christ's sanctification starts in the innermost kernel, the human spirit, and expands outward - " ... may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame ..." It is the innermost kernel of the metaphysical being which receives the new birth - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) Our human spirit needs to be born of the Holy Spirit in receiving Jesus Christ.
Then we are a disciple of Jesus. And Jesus Himself is WITH our human spirit - "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
And all the good things of Christ Himself are installed in the innermost being, the human spirit eagerly waiting to move outward into the human soul, transforming the personality - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." ( Phil. 4:23)"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen." (Gal. 6:18) For Christ and His word then to move from the center of man's being through the door and outward into the personality is for the living implanted word to save the soul through its transforming operation on the soul - "Therefore putting away all filthiness and the abundance of malice, receive in meekness the implanted word, which is able to save you souls." (James 1:21) The inward seed is the living word of God with the living resurrection Christ embodied as an implanted "seed" awaiting growth. For the seed to grow is to transform the soul which is the saving of the soul from the fallen nature.I favor then the "door" of opening in Matthew 7, a door between the innermost chamber of the disciple where the implanted seed is and the outer chamber of the soul where his personality is.Could ringo's concept of a door totally leading from the outside of man to the inside of man be possible in Matthew 7 ? I think I would have to say yes, possibly. For the unbeliever may seek, and ask, and knock unto God whom he has not yet received.He is seeking good things from God. He will find them in becomming a follower and believer in Jesus Christ.Next I will discuss ringo's contribution from Revelation chapter 3. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is ringo's other submission.Revelation 2 and 3 contains letters from the resurrected and ascended glorified Christ to seven representative Christian assemblies - ie. the seven churches which are in Asia.The "door" in Revelation 3:20 is really the door to the church as a corporate entity. It is the door of the community. It is the door to the church in Laodicea - "And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things say the Amen, the faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God." (Rev. 3:14) After Christ's warning, exhortation, rebuking to the whole church in Laodicea, He says - "Behold, I stand at the door and knock ..." This is the door to the church. But it is not too simple because the door is opened by individuals - "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, IF ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE and opens the door, then I will come in to him and dine with him and he with Me." This means that in this church Jesus has been chased away and placed outside and is at the door of the church knocking to come back IN. The letting Him IN back into the church is brought about by each willing and hearing individual.Now follow me carefully. In the secular world a "church" is simply a collection of religious people, even Christians, let's say. Much less is a church a physical building ie. a building on the corner with a steeple. A "church" to the world is simply a group of faith bearing religious people.This is the world's view. It may even be some Christian's view. This is the sloppy view. Man is sloppy. Man may include in his "church" both believers and unbelievers in Jesus all mixed up together. For example, a Roman Catholic or world wide church - a Public Church. Man may have a State Church - Church of England. To them all English people are by default members of this Church.Jesus would not be so sloppy. To Jesus Christ and to God a church is ONLY those who have received Christ. So the church in Laodicea is a assembly of those who have already received Jesus Christ as Lord. Because they have the Spirit of Christ they are assembled as a church.So then HOW can we say that Jesus is on the OUTSIDE of the church knocking on the door IF He is already IN the church ?He is outside in the sense that He is not able to exercise His headship over all matters in the church. They are Christians. They have received Christ. They are indwelt with by Christ, and Christ is living in them. But Christ does not have much room at all to move them, influence them and be expressed from within them. In that sense Christ is OUTSIDE the door seeking to come in.They have much knowledge. Ringo, should like this. They have much knowledge of good and evil. They even have much spiritual knowledge. However much knowledge they have they are poor in living, in behavior and in expressing the Christ that lives in them - "Because you say, I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I counsel you to buy goal ..." ( v.17,18a) Lots of knowledge they have. And they think that because they possess such knowledge that they are rich. But Jesus tells them that actually they are poor and miserable and blind. Just possession of knowledge is not enough.The door of the church has Jesus outside seeking to come in that they may have not only knowledge but the living Lord Jesus vitally expressed.The name of the church is "the church in Laodicea". The name Laodicea means "the people's opinion."This is a lukewarm church which has no spiritual vitality because everyone is simply following their own opinion. And opinionated group of believers who are not cold or hot towards Christ but lukewarm and thinking that because they posses such knowledge they are spiritually rich. But they are blind and miserable and worthy of rebuke from Christ - "I know your works, that you are neither hot nor cold; I wish that you were cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to spew you out of My mouth." (v.16) Notice the paradox. The church here is in the mouth of Jesus and Jesus is outside the door of the church seeking to come in.Now the door is opened by each member who hears and opens. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him and dine with him and he with Me." You see, this congregation is not only poor but very hungry. The Lord Jesus desires a mutual feasting with them if He can come back into the congregation vitally. Those who open the door are those who overcome and will be rewarded - "He how overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (vs.21.22)So, I would say, related to the discussion on "doors" that the "door" in this passage is not totally outside of man. While I would not fight tooth and nail about it, I would say a better way is to see it as a door like a conscience. It connects, like in the other example, the innermost spirit of believers in Jesus to the more outward area of the soul and personality.They HAVE Christ within or they would not be a church to begin with. But as to their living, their vitality, Christ is confined within them and not able to more powerfully influence their expression. He seeks them to repent and open up the door of the church. This can only be done by each voluntary Christian individually who is a part of the local church there.

We're not talking about independence here. Adam never "sought independence". He grew up. He took responsibility for his own life. That responsibility was thrust on him by God. Growing up and taking responsibility for your own actions is not "forsaking God". The choice to forsake God is "crouching at the door" but you don't have to make the wrong choice. Growing up is not a choice, much less a bad one. That's what I've been saying. God wants (present tense) man to choose Him on an ongoing day-to-day basis. He wants (present tense) all of us to choose Him individually, not just inherit the choice from Adam. Look in the mirror. You're the one calling it a "curse" and a "fall" when God Himself said they became more like Him. By your logic, being more like God is a curse. That is not what the Bible says. As you've quoted yourself, sin is crouching at the door. Do you think it's trying to get out? You're reading too much into it. The story doesn't say that eating the fruit caused them to die. In fact, it didn't cause them to die that same day, which is what God had claimed. From the story, there is no reason to think that they would not have died anyway, years later, like they did. That's what GOD said about the tree. The story doesn't say that. The story doesn't say that. And in the next chapter God Himself tells Cain that sin is still crouching outside the door.

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Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

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Sin was only a threat to Cain and only if he didn't do well. Sin entering his life was wholly dependent on his own actions.

The disciples are no different from anybody else. They happened to be Jesus' audience at the time but don't pretend that He taught them something different than He taught everybody else.