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Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
roxrkool Member (Idle past 988 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
I agree, Percy.
And to this I would add that Creationism is a perfect example of truthiness. Some people need the Bible to represent absolute truth so much, that they are forced to will facts into existence. This is a powerful foe.
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edge Member (Idle past 1705 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote:Really? As something of a volcanologist myself, I find this to be a remarkable statement. You are saying that water will transfer enough heat from one place to another to melt rocks in that new location? quote:Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. Most water in volcanic rocks is bound water. It is not a separate water or steam phase untill the body cools. quote:Neither of these say anything like what you seem to be talking about. quote:Do you know that most of the mid-ocean ridge tholeeites and hawaiian-type basalts are among the dryest volcanic rocks on the planet? Why do you supppose that is? quote:I'm not sure what the 'deep abyss of the earth' is. Are you talking about the abyssal ocean? Do you really think that seismology has found bodies of water in or below the crust of the earth? quote:Ah, good! A biblical reference to tell us about the structure of the earth. Now that makes sense. However, I'd like to see some data. quote:Have you ever seen a subterranean river? Do you understand what an aquifer is? Do you think there are aquifers at the base of the crust or in the mantle? And why would any of these not be dexcribed by a mainstream model?
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Architect-426 Member (Idle past 4622 days) Posts: 76 From: NC, USA Joined: |
Hey Edge,
quote: First off I never said I am a volcanologist, but utterly interested and fascinated by the phenomena? Absolutely, and I believe it was the scientific mechanism in which the earth was utterly destroyed. Why wouldn’t a body of water act as a heat transfer? In engineering it’s simply called convective heat transfer. The earth is dynamic, not static at all and there’s a heck-of-a lot going on down there. If there are large abyssal bodies of water at these extreme temperatures, then they could certainly be able melt the rock at their boundary. At that point volcanism begins with the vertical movement of the magma body through the crust. And of course depending on their viscosity, temperature, mineral makeup, local geology etc. will determine weather they become intrusive or extrusive.
quote: This can potentially open up a bigger discussion of which rocks are “volcanic” and which are “not”. I’ve always been perplexed by this in studying geology. Virtually all rocks, with the exception of some sedimentary rocks, were at one time molten, and had to be “placed” in their current position by a huge mechanism. If this is true, then technically all rocks are “volcanic”. Not all erupted out of a conical volcano, but were spread across the face of the earth in a “volcanic” fashion. So where do geologists conclude rocks originate from if not via a volcanic mechanism? In addition, yes the water at that point will certainly be bound water after cooling. The fact is there is dissolved water in all magmas. Some types of magmas more than others of course. Where does this water come from? It must be buried deep. And if the water is given off too quickly, the magma body will stop it ascent and dry.
quote: I’m somewhat at a loss on your comment here. My point is magma needs water. Water reduces the melting point tremendously. It is the most important volatile in magma “production”, followed by CO2. Here are a few more links that may help. http://quake.mit.edu/...p/MantleConvection/170298_notes.htmlcosis.net Cerritos College - Page Not Found Click on the video of the lava fountain recorded in Hawaii earlier this year. No fishing allowed!File not found# This one in particular talks about the aqueous fluids released in mid-ocean crusts. Content Not Found: Ingenta Connect
quote: You bet they have. Geotimes - May 2007 - Deep Earth may hold an ocean3-D seismic model of vast water reservoir revealed - The Source - Washington University in St. Louis http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/...nal/118927207/abstract http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1994/93JB03405.shtml http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/...nal/110460141/abstract http://www.seg.or.kr/mullitamsa/2004/vol7_no1/05EG351Xue_y(25-32).pdf quote: Provided above.
quote: Quite frankly I try to spend most of my awake and vertical time above ground, and yes I have witnessed subterranean water.
quote: Of course. Ever heard of the Quarani’ Aquifer or the Ogallala Aquifer systems? There is plenty of water available inside the earth for phreatomagmatic and hydrovolcanism.
quote: These models do exist and are certainly described in phreatomagmatic and hydrovolcanism as well as other types of volcanism. One more scientific link to bore everyone with: Hydrovolcanism - NASA/ADS Let me summarize this. 1. The Scriptures describe deep abyssal waters. Also read Psalm 24 as well as Genesis Chapter 1. Go ahead, it won’t hurt you . 2. Magma needs water as a flux to form and contains dissolved water. 3. Seismic anomolies have produced results of deep abyssal waters. 4. The interior of the earth was first thought to be molten, then solid, and now the conclusion is both. I agree that it is both. 5. Crustal waters provide the needed “coolant” interaction with magma to produce large scale volcanic explosions. Los Alamos National Laboratories have proven the larger the magma, water contact area, the greater the power of the eruption. In other words, volcanic explosions can be utterly colossal. 6. It has been observed that when large scale eruptions and earthquakes occur, other regions of the earth are affected. This was the case this year when shortly after the Sichuan earthquake occurred, new geysers opened up in Iceland. Also volcanologists are a bit perplexed by the eruption of three volcanoes in Alaska this year and have concluded that these eruptions are most likely interconnected. Scripture supports this type of action-reaction phenomena. 7. Water always wins in the water-rock battle. Always. It melts rocks, turns rock into mud, explodes, flips rocks over, makes mountains out of them and blasts them into smitherines. It floods, erodes, and freezes causing more and more damage to rocks. The very element that sustains and gives life has the utter power to completely destroy it, and God destroyed the earth with water. I hope this helps to clarify my hypothesis. Thanks. Edited by ARCHITECT-426, : bad joke
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The very element that sustains and gives life has the utter power to completely destroy it, and God destroyed the earth with water. Nonsense. This is just a local tribal myth. However, if you want to try to support this then I would like to start with two basic questions.
If you can provide answers agreed-upon by creationists we can then proceed. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Not all erupted out of a conical volcano, but were spread across the face of the earth in a “volcanic” fashion. So where do geologists conclude rocks originate from if not via a volcanic mechanism? The "volcanic" rocks are those which are extrusive. Most Igneous rocks are intrusive, cooled below ground and over the course of time, with the above ground having been eroded away, were exposed to the surface. Igneous and volcanic are not synonyms There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Percy writes: Interestingly, this human tendency to jump to conclusions has secondary and tertiary effects. Not only do creationists jump to conclusions like, for example, that the earth is young, they also jump to the conclusion that the evidence supporting that fact must exist, else so many books and websites wouldn't be saying so. They then jump to another conclusion that the people behind those books and websites know what they're talking about. I've been reading quite a bit in this thread and so far have read no statements by any creationists claiming that the earth is young. Of course by now you're aware that I'm not a YEC and Architect says he's not. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
hey ARCHITECT-426,
This can potentially open up a bigger discussion of which rocks are “volcanic” and which are “not”. ... In other words - a side topic to your side topic on volcanism that doesn't relate to trilobite fossils in sedimentary deposits on mountains.
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics. You could just use Message 123 as your topic and carry on from there. Topics are limits to ~300 posts, and of late there has been zero discussion of trilobite fossils and other sedimentary deposits on mountaintops and an explanation of how they got there. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I've been reading quite a bit in this thread and so far have read no statements by any creationists claiming that the earth is young. Curiously the OP does not require one or the other, rather it has to do with explaining the diversity of sedimentary fossils on mountain tops and how a Y/O/G creationist would explain this fact. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 988 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
Virtually all rocks, with the exception of some sedimentary rocks, were at one time molten, and had to be “placed” in their current position by a huge mechanism. If this is true, then technically all rocks are “volcanic”. Not all erupted out of a conical volcano, but were spread across the face of the earth in a “volcanic” fashion. I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly you are saying here. What is your definition of volcanic and what do you mean by "placed" and "spread across the face of the earth?" Obviously, the first rocks on earth had to be igneous. Once the earth had land masses, the igneous rocks could start weathering, eroding, and breaking down into gravel and sand deposits. Once those gravels or sands harden by being cemented together, they are called sedimentary rocks. While the individual minerals and rock fragments of these sands and gravels technically started out as igneous phases, the new rocks are not termed igneous and were never molten. Once the earth had bodies of water and had cooled sufficiently, carbonates started to precipitate and were interbedded with clays, siliceous oozes, iron, etc., to form marine deposits. These certainly were never molten, either. With the advent of plate tectonics, rocks started getting smashed, ground, subducted, heated/cooked, all of which results in metamorphism. These are the only rocks that may locally reach a partially molten stage.
So where do geologists conclude rocks originate from if not via a volcanic mechanism? Sedimentary rocks are identified as such based on composition, appearance, internal structures. These rocks form on the surface of the earth (on land or underwater) and record the conditions that existed therein, including water temperature, water chemistry, climate, atmospheric chemistry, etc. Sandstones, conglomerates, shales, limestones, volcanic ash fall, cherts, etc. all comprise sedimentary rocks. Geologists rarely have difficulty identifying sedimentary rocks or where in the geologic cycle they formed. Metamorphic rocks are identified as such based on composition, appearance, and internal structures. Metamorphic rocks form from other rocks that have been subjected to new conditions. These rocks most often form below the surface of the earth under increased temperature and pressure, but also at contacts with igneous bodies where the original rock gets heated by the incoming magma body. These rocks are often very easy to identify, but occasionally have a similar appearance to igneous rocks. Igneous rocks are identified as such based on composition, appearance, internal structures. These rocks formed either under the surface of the ground (intrusive, plutonic rocks) or were erupted onto the surface of the earth (volcanic rocks). They are derived from deep within the earth, were molten, and upon reaching cooler temperature regimes, hardened into rocks. Intrusive/plutonic igneous rocks tend to be coarser grained while extrusive/volcanic igneous rocks tend to be finer grained. They often have very well defined and intergrown crystalline structure. These rocks are rarely confused for anything other than metamorphic rocks on occasion. While sedimentary rocks form on the surface of the earth, metamorphic and intrusive igneous rocks (because they are typically deep-seated) must be exposed to the surface in order to be revealed. This is accomplished through tectonics and weathering. Rocks form in many different environments and by simply looking at the mineralogy, we can see under what conditions they formed.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
RAZD writes: Curiously the OP does not require one or the other, rather it has to do with explaining the diversity of sedimentary fossils on mountain tops and how a Y/O/G creationist would explain this fact. I understand, but since Percy and others tend to paint all creationists with this YEC brush, I saw fit to set the record straight. That YEC brush, which is neither Biblical or scientific, works to weaken creationist's credibility in these science threads. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Architect-426 Member (Idle past 4622 days) Posts: 76 From: NC, USA Joined: |
Hey Roxrkool,
Congrats on your recent achievement! Welcome to the “real world” or back to it, whichever the case may be. I sincerely wish you well in your future endeavors.
Or does your silence signify concession on those matters? Absolutely not. I will certainly be glad to elaborate later. I have been designing and building buildings for over 25 years now. That’s quite a few projects. Now I’m not ”tooting my horn’ here, but you, and everyone else should know that I am a very pragmatic individual. I have successfully designed and completed a wide variety of construction projects over the years. Real projects, real clients, real budgets, real agencies, real challenges. My point is that “design theories” or any type of “theory” for that matter are “out the window” in the real world. Bottom line, things must work. In construction sometimes we move or reshape mountains and even at times we make “new ones”. We do this primarily with 2 means; 1. Dynamite and 2. Heavy equipment. Its takes LOTS of energy to move and reshape the earth. Here is a simple pragmatic kinetic energy equation you may remember from physics 101; KE=1/2 x M x V (squared) V = velocity, which of course is required for kinetic energy. Since everyone is ”dodging’ my question regarding the documented amount of movement of these so called “plates”, please at least explain what generates the “V” in plate tectonics that is powerful enough to create KE needed to build mountains. No theories. No jabs at Faith. I’d like to see real, pragmatic, scientific documentation that has been observed, recorded and tested. Then we can begin to explore how fossils ended up so lofty. Approach this as if your entire career depends on it. Every time I sign and seal Construction Documents from my office, my design, research and calculations must work, because my entire career does depend on it. I look forward to your (and anyone else who concedes to the plate tectonic theory) response. Thanks Just read your post above, thanks for your thorough response. I have a few more questions but will post those later. Edited by ARCHITECT-426, : No reason given. Edited by ARCHITECT-426, : No reason given. Edited by ARCHITECT-426, : No reason given.
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
1) the flood was much longer in duration than is the published conjecture, How does this follow from your premise?
(2) the marine environment was unusually productive, in which case we come to the problem of trilobites ... and all other extinct marine fauna and flora from the Precambrian through the marine dinosaurs ... not surviving the flood. How do these assertions harm a Genesis flood?
Thus you have a logical contradiction. Evidence of multiple layers of mature marine environments on mountains is rather evidence of long ages -- ages to form mature marine environments, ages to cover them, ages for the other mature marine environments to form, and ages for the sedimentary basin to be pushed up into mountains by tectonic activity. What contradiction? How did this OP get past PNT? All you have done in this last paragraph is to state (rather poorly) the evolution explanation. The Creationism explanation is the Great Flood. Half of all adults in the U.S. accept the Creationism explanation. Once again: we have one set of evidence and two major explanations. Ray
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
That YEC brush, which is neither Biblical or scientific, works to weaken creationist's credibility in these science threads. I agree 100 percent. Ray
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Once again: we have one set of evidence and two major explanations.
No. Wrong. Totally and completely wrong. The creationists' explanation for the facts was tested by science and rejected between 150 and 200 years ago. Since then the scientific explanations have been tested and supported time and time again. It is only the creationists, using their illegitimate version of science -- creation "science" -- who refuse to accept the findings of science due to religious reasons. You can blind yourselves to reality, you can misrepresent and ignore those inconvenient facts, but you can't claim what you do is science, nor that your explanations are equally legitimate as scientific ones. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
The creationists' explanation for the facts was tested by science and rejected between 150 and 200 years ago. I thought you believed Creationism was not testable?
It is only the creationists, using their illegitimate version of science -- creation "science" -- who refuse to accept the findings of science due to religious reasons. If this means we accept a Great Flood because the Bible says so I would agree that this is the first and foremost reason. The second reason is because the physical evidence corroborates. In this context I would say that evolutionists reject the Bible for anti-religious reasons. Presuppositions determine interpretation of evidence. Darwinism presupposes the Flood false because otherwise evolution is false. Creationism presupposes the Flood true because the Bible is the most credible Source ever assembled. The criteria for canonicity was "was the writing Divinely inspired?"
You can blind yourselves to reality, you can misrepresent and ignore those inconvenient facts, but you can't claim what you do is science, nor that your explanations are equally legitimate as scientific ones. In a recent different thread I readily admitted that 20th century Creationism is not science. Of course 20th century Darwinism is not science either because of its starting presuppositions (pro-Materialism-Naturalism). Ray
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