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Author Topic:   God is evil if He has miracles and does not use them.
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 390 (750325)
02-13-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by AZPaul3
02-13-2015 11:52 AM


Re: evil is slippery
If he can but won't then it's all on him regardless
Nonsense.
You're just trying to pass responsibility off onto someone else when it is us who should be taking care of our business and not some dictator god.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2015 11:52 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2015 1:01 PM Jon has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 107 of 390 (750326)
02-13-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
02-13-2015 12:16 PM


Re: evil is slippery
If He can do anything, that doesn't mean He can do everything at once.
So, it's not that he can but won't, but that he can't.
He can't do what's best for the rape victim and what's best for the rapist at the same time.
So, your're saying the "best" thing for the rapist is to rape? Really? How bout he find something "better" for the rapist to do like take up knitting? He can't? He can but he won't?
He can't do what's best for the sick person and what's best for the bacteria at the same time.
That's simple, too. Make the bacteria not make the person sick. Is it "best" for the bacteria to make the person sick? Why? Because that's the way he made it and he can't or won't stop it? He didn't make it that way but still can't or won't?
Ditto the zebra/lion.
If he made things this way it doesn't matter if he can affect all the outcomes at once or not. It's on him. He's guilty. If he did not make things this way, then who are we talking about? Certainly a lesser conception than a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 02-13-2015 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 02-14-2015 11:04 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 108 of 390 (750327)
02-13-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Jon
02-13-2015 12:59 PM


Re: evil is slippery
You're just trying to pass responsibility off onto someone else when it is us who should be taking care of our business and not some dictator god.
I agree. No god. I'm with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Jon, posted 02-13-2015 12:59 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Jon, posted 02-13-2015 1:14 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 390 (750332)
02-13-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by AZPaul3
02-13-2015 1:01 PM


Re: evil is slippery
You're in the wrong thread and way out of your depth.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2015 1:01 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 110 of 390 (750360)
02-14-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by AZPaul3
02-13-2015 12:59 PM


Re: evil is slippery
AZPaul3 writes:
So, your're saying the "best" thing for the rapist is to rape? Really? How bout he find something "better" for the rapist to do like take up knitting?
The point here is that you don't get to decide what's "best" for everybody - and if you did, your choices would conflict with each other. You can't have what's "best" for everybody at the same time.
AZPaul3 writes:
Make the bacteria not make the person sick.
What are the bacteria supposed to eat?
AZPaul3 writes:
Ditto the zebra/lion.
What's the lion supposed to eat? Grass? Is that "best" for the grass?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2015 12:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by frako, posted 02-14-2015 12:32 PM ringo has replied
 Message 113 by AZPaul3, posted 02-14-2015 1:22 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 111 of 390 (750363)
02-14-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Stile
02-12-2015 2:11 PM


Re: evil is slippery
If a human rapes another human, it shows that I (as a human) did nothing that would result in stopping that rape.
How do you manage to live with yourself? A incestuous rape happened last night and you did nothing?
Perhaps the fact that one human has raped another is not sufficient to establish any moral responsibility or consequences for you.
As for God, absent a particular model for his involvement in human lives, how can you establish whether any particular bad thing implicates God? Exactly how do you believe God operates in the universe? Is your question directed towards the Calvinist? the Deist? Or is it directed to yourself?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 02-12-2015 2:11 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 02-17-2015 9:06 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 112 of 390 (750364)
02-14-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
02-14-2015 11:04 AM


Re: evil is slippery
What's the lion supposed to eat? Grass? Is that "best" for the grass?
Why not just give everybody the ability of photosynthesis, no one has to eat anyone to survive problems solved.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 02-14-2015 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 02-17-2015 11:34 AM frako has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 113 of 390 (750365)
02-14-2015 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
02-14-2015 11:04 AM


Re: evil is slippery
The point here is that you don't get to decide what's "best" for everybody...
The topic is not about me or you or any other person making such decisions. It is about some god, if he exists, either unable or unwilling to stop the evil in this world. Is god evil or immoral for allowing such to happen if he has the power to stop it?
Stile said he would not fault god if he were so limited he does not know everything, does not see everything and is not all-powerful so he could not intervene to stop evil. You came up with a scenario where you tried to make god all powerful but argued that though he could intervene that doesn't necessarily mean that He should.
My point was that this doesn't matter. Should/shouldn't are irrelevant along with anyone's opinion on should/shouldn't. If he is able to stop evil and, regardless of reason, he does not then the evil is on him. If he is restricted and can not stop the evil then Styles would cut the guy some slack.
Quite simple, actually.
Then you got into this "what is best" stuff and I cannot be the judge. I don't care to judge "best" or chose among your rather strange alternatives.
One question is defining "evil". Whether we have any agreement on what is/isn't or not is also irrelevant.
In any scenario I may see as evil then for me the topic arises: Is god able but unwilling or is he limited and unable? In any scenario someone else may see as evil then for them the topic arises: Is god able but unwilling or is he limited and unable?
We, of course, will never know the answer in this life but if god was able to stop said evil and did not do so then, IMHO, we would be justified in considering the creep an evil immoral SOB. End of topic.
But...
To continue the game:
What are the bacteria supposed to eat?
Something else, just like their cousins that don't eat, debilitate and kill humans.
What's the lion supposed to eat? Grass? Is that "best" for the grass?
Well god would need to remake the lion with the appropriate set of teeth, but, sure. And, yes, the grass won't mind at all.
Edited by AZPaul3, : tense

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 02-14-2015 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 02-15-2015 5:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 02-17-2015 11:21 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 390 (750425)
02-15-2015 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by AZPaul3
02-14-2015 1:22 PM


Re: evil is slippery
IMHO, we would be justified in considering the creep an evil immoral SOB. End of topic.
Justified under what authority?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by AZPaul3, posted 02-14-2015 1:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 02-16-2015 7:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 115 of 390 (750451)
02-16-2015 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
02-15-2015 5:31 PM


Re: evil is slippery
By the same justification with which we judge all those who knowingly perpetrate or callously allow pain and suffering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 02-15-2015 5:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 116 of 390 (750511)
02-17-2015 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Jon
02-12-2015 5:04 PM


Re: When Good Gods do Nothing
Jon writes:
Stile writes:
Jon writes:
...though I really doubt anything such as 'evil' exists for animals...
In the context you're using the term here, I really doubt anything such as 'evil' exists for humans as well.
Nonsense: evil.
But... that definition you provided works for evil being present in animals, or any intelligence.
If you don't think 'evil' exists for animals, you can't be using that basic/simple definition for evil. You have to be using some sort of 'deeper understanding' of the actions or something like that. That's why I questioned you on it.
Then you provide a definition that agrees with me and refutes your own position?
I care more about my cat than I do about the bird. I would still save the bird. Why do you think that is?
Because you want to stop evil? (In this case -> something being hurt when you're pretty sure it doesn't want to be hurt, and you know you're going to feed your cat.)
That would be the same sort of idea I'm thinking of for God... He should want to prevent someone from being hurt that doesn't want to be hurt, especially when He knows He can provide for the fulfillment of the aggressor in another way anyway.
Well if your opinions extend only to the realm of a single hypothetical situation, then I suppose the whole thing's moot.
If by moot you mean that it's obvious I'm right about the single hypothetical situation I provided, then thank-you. I think it's rather obvious, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Jon, posted 02-12-2015 5:04 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Jon, posted 02-17-2015 8:59 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 117 of 390 (750512)
02-17-2015 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
02-12-2015 4:07 PM


Re: evil is slippery
jar writes:
Stile writes:
However, if you did all these things, then stood in the alley and watched while she was raped, I would say you did nothing.
This is more akin to an all powerful God, don't you think?
Well no, I do not think that.
You are always entitled to your opinion. Would you care to explain it and give your reasoning?
It's okay if you don't want to. I'm not here to force anyone to talk about anything they're uncomfortable with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 02-12-2015 4:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 02-17-2015 9:51 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 118 of 390 (750513)
02-17-2015 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
02-13-2015 11:22 AM


Re: evil is slippery
ringo writes:
If God is all-powerful, He can do everything but that doesn't necessarily mean that He should do everything you think He should do. ... The one who gets to decide is me.
I agree, actually.
Which is why I would pose the question to God, if I ever were to meet Him, as to why He does not interfere for obvious (to us) circumstances.
Perhaps He has a really good reason, perhaps He has a shitty reason (like He doesn't care enough). I don't know, I'm just wondering.
Without, however, any input from God. I continue with my own speculation.
ringo writes:
There's a difference between doing nothing and not doing everything.
I agree. I'm not talking about doing everything.
In fact, I'm talking about 1 very specific, restricted event. I'm wondering why it's seems so difficult for some people to agree with such a thing.
Here's my example again, from Message 42:
quote:
You have a daughter (just an example, I have no idea if it's true or not).
She's going to be raped when she's 12 years old.
God can prevent it, you can't.
Your daughter would prefer it if the rape was prevented (...do I really have to clarify such a thing? )
If your daughter is not raped, she will lead the rest of her life as she sees fit. It won't be a perfect life, but it will be hers and she'll die of old age when she's 96.
The would-be rapist will not get out of bed that day. The next day he'll go about his normal life afterwards, it will be full of other evil... it just won't include the rape of your daughter.
If your daughter is raped, she will be forced down a road of doubt, confusion and depression. She won't be able to get a job. She won't be able to form relationships (even platonic ones). She will kill herself when she's 27 to end the pain.
The would-be rapist will go about his normal life which is full of other evils.
There are no hidden or unforeseen complications to this example. No additional information of any significance. This is it.
This God has restrictions and only this single rape meets all the criteria for God to be able to prevent it, it is not possible for God to interfere in our world in any other way, at any other time.
Would you like to live in a world where God prevents the rape of your daughter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 02-13-2015 11:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 02-17-2015 11:32 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 390 (750517)
02-17-2015 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Stile
02-17-2015 8:42 AM


Re: When Good Gods do Nothing
But... that definition you provided works for evil being present in animals, or any intelligence.
If you don't think 'evil' exists for animals, you can't be using that basic/simple definition for evil. You have to be using some sort of 'deeper understanding' of the actions or something like that. That's why I questioned you on it.
No it doesn't. It was conceived of by humans, written by humans, is read by humans, and understood by humans.
It has nothing to do with animals or any intelligence other than humans.
Because you want to stop evil?
Yep. For my own selfish interests; because of what I want.
That would be the same sort of idea I'm thinking of for God.
Yes, me too. A god that gets involved in things that aren't his business is doing so out of his own selfish interests.
He should want to prevent someone from being hurt that doesn't want to be hurt, especially when He knows He can provide for the fulfillment of the aggressor in another way anyway.
He should grant people whatever they want and keep them from what they don't want? Are we talking about gods or puppets?
If by moot you mean that it's obvious I'm right about the single hypothetical situation I provided, then thank-you. I think it's rather obvious, too.
By moot I mean There is no point bringing up examples, analogies, or hypotheticals if their explanatory power extends no further than their own sphere of fantasy.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Stile, posted 02-17-2015 8:42 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 02-23-2015 10:12 AM Jon has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 120 of 390 (750518)
02-17-2015 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by NoNukes
02-14-2015 11:53 AM


Re: evil is slippery
NoNukes writes:
How do you manage to live with yourself? A incestuous rape happened last night and you did nothing?
I'm sorry, it was not within my power to prevent.
I am limited in my resources, my observations, my mobility, my strength, my stamina, my mental prowess, and my empathy-towards-other-humans.
I made my peace long ago with not being able to change all the things I desire to change. It doesn't stop me from feeling bad, but it does let me sleep at night.
I know I do not do everything that I can as I do not devote my entire life to preventing rapes in the city I'm in.
Perhaps this makes me evil, perhaps not.
Perhaps the fact that one human has raped another is not sufficient to establish any moral responsibility or consequences for you.
Perhaps. I don't find this relevant, though... as humans have many limitations.
NoNukes writes:
As for God, absent a particular model for his involvement in human lives, how can you establish whether any particular bad thing implicates God?
I can't. That's why I'd ask Him, if I ever met Him.
Maybe He has a perfectly reasonable, satisfactory answer for not helping out. Maybe He just doesn't care. Maybe He doesn't exist.
Exactly how do you believe God operates in the universe?
I don't believe that God exists. I think the world is as it is because it's just us, and some of us simply don't care about others.
Is your question directed towards the Calvinist? the Deist? Or is it directed to yourself?
This question is directed to anyone who thinks God is not limited in His resources, His observations, His mobility, His strength, His stamina, His mental prowess or His empathy-towards-other-humans.
Any limitations on any of those qualities can lead one to "do the best they can, but it's just not enough (for us humans)."
However, no limitation on all of those qualities, and still not preventing such horrific evil is, well, puzzling to say the least. And "protecting free will" is not a satisfactory answer as it allows for the destruction of the free will of the victim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by NoNukes, posted 02-14-2015 11:53 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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