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Author | Topic: God is evil if He has miracles and does not use them. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
If he can but won't then it's all on him regardless Nonsense. You're just trying to pass responsibility off onto someone else when it is us who should be taking care of our business and not some dictator god.Love your enemies!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
If He can do anything, that doesn't mean He can do everything at once. So, it's not that he can but won't, but that he can't.
He can't do what's best for the rape victim and what's best for the rapist at the same time. So, your're saying the "best" thing for the rapist is to rape? Really? How bout he find something "better" for the rapist to do like take up knitting? He can't? He can but he won't?
He can't do what's best for the sick person and what's best for the bacteria at the same time. That's simple, too. Make the bacteria not make the person sick. Is it "best" for the bacteria to make the person sick? Why? Because that's the way he made it and he can't or won't stop it? He didn't make it that way but still can't or won't? Ditto the zebra/lion. If he made things this way it doesn't matter if he can affect all the outcomes at once or not. It's on him. He's guilty. If he did not make things this way, then who are we talking about? Certainly a lesser conception than a god.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
You're just trying to pass responsibility off onto someone else when it is us who should be taking care of our business and not some dictator god. I agree. No god. I'm with you.
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Jon Inactive Member |
You're in the wrong thread and way out of your depth.
Love your enemies!
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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AZPaul3 writes:
The point here is that you don't get to decide what's "best" for everybody - and if you did, your choices would conflict with each other. You can't have what's "best" for everybody at the same time.
So, your're saying the "best" thing for the rapist is to rape? Really? How bout he find something "better" for the rapist to do like take up knitting? AZPaul3 writes:
What are the bacteria supposed to eat?
Make the bacteria not make the person sick. AZPaul3 writes:
What's the lion supposed to eat? Grass? Is that "best" for the grass?
Ditto the zebra/lion.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If a human rapes another human, it shows that I (as a human) did nothing that would result in stopping that rape. How do you manage to live with yourself? A incestuous rape happened last night and you did nothing? Perhaps the fact that one human has raped another is not sufficient to establish any moral responsibility or consequences for you. As for God, absent a particular model for his involvement in human lives, how can you establish whether any particular bad thing implicates God? Exactly how do you believe God operates in the universe? Is your question directed towards the Calvinist? the Deist? Or is it directed to yourself?Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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frako Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
What's the lion supposed to eat? Grass? Is that "best" for the grass? Why not just give everybody the ability of photosynthesis, no one has to eat anyone to survive problems solved. Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
The point here is that you don't get to decide what's "best" for everybody... The topic is not about me or you or any other person making such decisions. It is about some god, if he exists, either unable or unwilling to stop the evil in this world. Is god evil or immoral for allowing such to happen if he has the power to stop it? Stile said he would not fault god if he were so limited he does not know everything, does not see everything and is not all-powerful so he could not intervene to stop evil. You came up with a scenario where you tried to make god all powerful but argued that though he could intervene that doesn't necessarily mean that He should. My point was that this doesn't matter. Should/shouldn't are irrelevant along with anyone's opinion on should/shouldn't. If he is able to stop evil and, regardless of reason, he does not then the evil is on him. If he is restricted and can not stop the evil then Styles would cut the guy some slack. Quite simple, actually. Then you got into this "what is best" stuff and I cannot be the judge. I don't care to judge "best" or chose among your rather strange alternatives. One question is defining "evil". Whether we have any agreement on what is/isn't or not is also irrelevant. In any scenario I may see as evil then for me the topic arises: Is god able but unwilling or is he limited and unable? In any scenario someone else may see as evil then for them the topic arises: Is god able but unwilling or is he limited and unable? We, of course, will never know the answer in this life but if god was able to stop said evil and did not do so then, IMHO, we would be justified in considering the creep an evil immoral SOB. End of topic. But... To continue the game:
What are the bacteria supposed to eat? Something else, just like their cousins that don't eat, debilitate and kill humans.
What's the lion supposed to eat? Grass? Is that "best" for the grass? Well god would need to remake the lion with the appropriate set of teeth, but, sure. And, yes, the grass won't mind at all. Edited by AZPaul3, : tense
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
IMHO, we would be justified in considering the creep an evil immoral SOB. End of topic. Justified under what authority?Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
By the same justification with which we judge all those who knowingly perpetrate or callously allow pain and suffering.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Jon writes: Stile writes: Jon writes: ...though I really doubt anything such as 'evil' exists for animals... In the context you're using the term here, I really doubt anything such as 'evil' exists for humans as well. Nonsense: evil. But... that definition you provided works for evil being present in animals, or any intelligence.If you don't think 'evil' exists for animals, you can't be using that basic/simple definition for evil. You have to be using some sort of 'deeper understanding' of the actions or something like that. That's why I questioned you on it. Then you provide a definition that agrees with me and refutes your own position?
I care more about my cat than I do about the bird. I would still save the bird. Why do you think that is? Because you want to stop evil? (In this case -> something being hurt when you're pretty sure it doesn't want to be hurt, and you know you're going to feed your cat.) That would be the same sort of idea I'm thinking of for God... He should want to prevent someone from being hurt that doesn't want to be hurt, especially when He knows He can provide for the fulfillment of the aggressor in another way anyway.
Well if your opinions extend only to the realm of a single hypothetical situation, then I suppose the whole thing's moot. If by moot you mean that it's obvious I'm right about the single hypothetical situation I provided, then thank-you. I think it's rather obvious, too.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
jar writes: Stile writes: However, if you did all these things, then stood in the alley and watched while she was raped, I would say you did nothing.This is more akin to an all powerful God, don't you think? Well no, I do not think that. You are always entitled to your opinion. Would you care to explain it and give your reasoning?It's okay if you don't want to. I'm not here to force anyone to talk about anything they're uncomfortable with.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: If God is all-powerful, He can do everything but that doesn't necessarily mean that He should do everything you think He should do. ... The one who gets to decide is me. I agree, actually.Which is why I would pose the question to God, if I ever were to meet Him, as to why He does not interfere for obvious (to us) circumstances. Perhaps He has a really good reason, perhaps He has a shitty reason (like He doesn't care enough). I don't know, I'm just wondering. Without, however, any input from God. I continue with my own speculation.
ringo writes: There's a difference between doing nothing and not doing everything. I agree. I'm not talking about doing everything.In fact, I'm talking about 1 very specific, restricted event. I'm wondering why it's seems so difficult for some people to agree with such a thing. Here's my example again, from Message 42:
quote:
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Jon Inactive Member |
But... that definition you provided works for evil being present in animals, or any intelligence. If you don't think 'evil' exists for animals, you can't be using that basic/simple definition for evil. You have to be using some sort of 'deeper understanding' of the actions or something like that. That's why I questioned you on it. No it doesn't. It was conceived of by humans, written by humans, is read by humans, and understood by humans. It has nothing to do with animals or any intelligence other than humans.
Because you want to stop evil? Yep. For my own selfish interests; because of what I want.
That would be the same sort of idea I'm thinking of for God. Yes, me too. A god that gets involved in things that aren't his business is doing so out of his own selfish interests.
He should want to prevent someone from being hurt that doesn't want to be hurt, especially when He knows He can provide for the fulfillment of the aggressor in another way anyway. He should grant people whatever they want and keep them from what they don't want? Are we talking about gods or puppets?
If by moot you mean that it's obvious I'm right about the single hypothetical situation I provided, then thank-you. I think it's rather obvious, too. By moot I mean There is no point bringing up examples, analogies, or hypotheticals if their explanatory power extends no further than their own sphere of fantasy.Love your enemies!
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
NoNukes writes: How do you manage to live with yourself? A incestuous rape happened last night and you did nothing? I'm sorry, it was not within my power to prevent.I am limited in my resources, my observations, my mobility, my strength, my stamina, my mental prowess, and my empathy-towards-other-humans. I made my peace long ago with not being able to change all the things I desire to change. It doesn't stop me from feeling bad, but it does let me sleep at night. I know I do not do everything that I can as I do not devote my entire life to preventing rapes in the city I'm in.Perhaps this makes me evil, perhaps not. Perhaps the fact that one human has raped another is not sufficient to establish any moral responsibility or consequences for you. Perhaps. I don't find this relevant, though... as humans have many limitations.
NoNukes writes: As for God, absent a particular model for his involvement in human lives, how can you establish whether any particular bad thing implicates God? I can't. That's why I'd ask Him, if I ever met Him.Maybe He has a perfectly reasonable, satisfactory answer for not helping out. Maybe He just doesn't care. Maybe He doesn't exist. Exactly how do you believe God operates in the universe? I don't believe that God exists. I think the world is as it is because it's just us, and some of us simply don't care about others.
Is your question directed towards the Calvinist? the Deist? Or is it directed to yourself? This question is directed to anyone who thinks God is not limited in His resources, His observations, His mobility, His strength, His stamina, His mental prowess or His empathy-towards-other-humans. Any limitations on any of those qualities can lead one to "do the best they can, but it's just not enough (for us humans)."However, no limitation on all of those qualities, and still not preventing such horrific evil is, well, puzzling to say the least. And "protecting free will" is not a satisfactory answer as it allows for the destruction of the free will of the victim.
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