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Author Topic:   Ravi Zacharias:Sic Et Non - Without Which, Not
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 12 (78812)
01-16-2004 1:35 AM


Here is a reprint of a great article by a good Christian Apologist, In my opinion:"Paul Tillich, the noted existentialist theologian, traveled to Asia to hold conferences with various Buddhist thinkers. He was studying the significance of religious leaders to the movements they had engendered. Tillich asked a simple question. "What if by some fluke, the Buddha had never lived and turned out to be some sort of fabrication? What would be the implications for Buddhism?" Mind you, Tillich was concerned with the indispensability of the Buddha-not his authenticity.
The scholars did not hesitate to answer. If the Buddha was a myth, they said, it did not matter at all. Why? Because Buddhism should be judged as an abstract philosophy - as a system of living. Whether its concepts originated with the Buddha is irrelevant. (As an aside, I think that the Buddha himself would have concurred. Knowing that his death was imminent, he beseeched his followers not to focus on him but to remember his teachings. Not his life but his way of life was to be attended to and propagated.)
So, what of other world religions? Hinduism, as a conglomeration of thinkers and philosophies and gods, can certainly do without many of its deities. Some other major religions face the same predicament.
Is Christianity similar? Could God the Father have sent another instead of Jesus? May I say to you, and please hear me, that the answer is most categorically No. Jesus did not merely claim to be a prophet in a continuum of prophets. He is the unique Son of God, part of the very godhead that we call the Trinity. The apostle Paul says it this way: "[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the originator of all creation. . . God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him." Jesus Himself prayed, "[Father], You have granted [me] authority over all people that [I] might give eternal life to all those you have given [me]. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (Footnote 1: John 17:2-3)
As many have observed, Christianity is Christ. Indeed Englishman John R.W. Stott writes, "If Jesus was not God in human flesh, Christianity is exploded. We are left with just another religion with some beautiful ideas and noble ethics; its unique distinction would then be gone." Jesus is the word and the incarnation". I like Ravi. The guy uses his head.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 01-16-2004 2:30 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 12 (78818)
01-16-2004 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-16-2004 1:35 AM


Well I'm not suire that the article is so great. For instance saying that Hinduism could do without many if it's gods is like saying that Christianity can dispense with many of the angels - but that comparison is not made. So there is not even the attempt to make a fair comparison - instead polytheism is attacked simply for being polytheism.
Still I did find one thing interesting. The implicit argument is that Christianity does not represent a better way of life. Instead the important thing about Christianity is the acceptance of dogma. That seems to be a hollow and empty faith, with no real relationship to the Christianity I grew up with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 1:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 8:55 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 12 (78843)
01-16-2004 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by PaulK
01-16-2004 2:30 AM


Every Dogma has his day....
Paul, what is the definition of Dogma? Lemme look it up.....
dogma \dog-me\ n, pl dogmas also dogmata \-me-te\ 1 : a tenet or code of tenets 2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines formally proclaimed by a church. >>>>>>>OK what is the alternative word?
freethinker \-thin-ker\ n : one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; esp : one who doubts or denies religious dogma freethinking n or adj
So we have our choices, do we not? We can listen to authority or we can attempt to define our own.
Christianity is all about Christ and His authority. It is one thing to reject a manmade authority structure. It is another thing to reject Christ. Christ by definition is the essence of Christianity.
Without His unique divinity, Christianity becomes philosophical christianity 101.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-16-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 01-16-2004 2:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 01-16-2004 9:28 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 12 (78850)
01-16-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
01-16-2004 8:55 AM


Re: Every Dogma has his day....
But what is the difference ?
Christian doctrine is just one more "manmade authority structure".
We can't really know what Jesus really taught or how he saw himself. We aren't in a position to accept or reject him - only what one or another Church says about him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 8:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 12:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 12 (78870)
01-16-2004 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
01-16-2004 9:28 AM


Re: Every Dogma has his day....
So are you saying that the Christianity that you grew up with made Jesus out to be a great philosophical manmade story rather than a source of authority?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 01-16-2004 9:28 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 01-16-2004 12:27 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 7 by Abshalom, posted 01-16-2004 7:21 PM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 12 (78873)
01-16-2004 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-16-2004 12:19 PM


Re: Every Dogma has his day....
Not at all. But it certainly did not claim that Christianity had no value other than holding particular beliefs which they held to be correct. And since every religion can claim that it has that much, it's hardly a sign that Christianity is any better than any other.

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 12 (78943)
01-16-2004 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-16-2004 12:19 PM


Re: Every Dogma has his day....
Would you say that the Gangsta Rap our kids are growing up with has made Snoop Dog out to be a great philosophical authority rather than a self-made, market-driven success story?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 12:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 8:04 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 12 (78952)
01-16-2004 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Abshalom
01-16-2004 7:21 PM


Re: Every Dog...including Snoop
Snoop may be one of the role models for many urban youth of our day who can relate to him, but as to the measure of the depth of his philosophy, I would argue that it has not been proven. If we were to search for rap/philosopher/kings, we may find one in Tupac Shakur, but although Tupac is quite poetic and urbane, he still has touched few people at large. Jesus, by contrast, has been implicated on a worldwide scale as the personality that has changed millions of lives. Now I guess that He may be the most well known among many.
In the sixties, One of the Beatles proclaimed his group as more popular than Jesus. At that time, they may have been close.
Perhaps your point is this: Dogma merely means that the spiritual authority propagated by the Church is not an absolute for everyone.
Christians cannot prove truth as an absolute, yet we can define it as an absolute....if embraced. All you ballas and pimps might just think that Snoop is preferable to occupy your time. Perhaps many scientific minds are not challenged by old paradigms and seek to expand provable realities. My view is that Jesus is a provable paradigm and also a great relationship to embrace. Thats about all that I can say....you guys are right in that it all IS relative in general. Can you relate to that?
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-16-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Abshalom, posted 01-16-2004 7:21 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 10:41 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 11 by Abshalom, posted 01-18-2004 11:26 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 12 (78974)
01-16-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
01-16-2004 8:04 PM


Ravi looks at the Post Modern Mind===>
Ravi Zacharias talks about relativism/post modernist thought. He states that:
So even as we look for our cultural moorings, and try to understand the radical shifts that have disrupted the shared meanings of the past, attempting a coherent answer becomes a prohibitive challenge. Walter Truett Anderson humorously gives us an insight into this in his book Reality Isn’t What It Used to Be. He compares our predicament by presenting an analogy from baseball. A pre-modern baseball umpire would have said some-thing like this, "There’s balls, and there’s strikes and I call ‘em as they are." The modernist one would have said, "There’s balls and there’s strikes, and I call ‘em as I see ‘em." And the postmodernist umpire would have said, "They ain’t nothing until I call ‘em." In brief, all reality is subject dependent and the postmodernist frames reality by naming aspects at his or her whim.
I guess that this settles the absolute/relativist argument in my mind. Even though I can describe an absolute to you guys, you have the final call as to how you define reality. Science is, to many of you, more comforting than what you would call myth and I would call Faith.
In his book Beyond the Postmodern Mind, Houston Smith makes this comment: "If modern physics showed us a world at odds with our senses, postmodern physics is showing us one that is at odds with our imagination. We have made peace with the first of these oddities, but the problem of the new physics cannot be resolved by refinements in the scale." How do you measure the imagination? There is no scale. If I were to identify a handful of fearsome realities, this would be near the top. The pursuit of knowledge without knowing who we are or why we exist, combined with a war on our imaginations by our entertainment industry, leaves us at the mercy of power with no morality. May I illustrate this?
On many different occasions while I was driving and listening to music, every now and then a piece would come on that I found either unmusical or jarring. I would shut the radio off. But then one day I was taken to see a play called The Phantom of the Opera. Suddenly I realized that some of the music I had not quite enjoyed was from this play. I was amazed at the difference knowing the story made, whenever I heard the music subsequently. In fact the music in some portions is utterly magnificent. The love songs, the discourses,yes, even the arguments made sense when you know the story. Life needs a story for one to understand the details. Life needs to hold together at the center if we are to reach to distant horizons. But our culture owns neither a story nor holds at the center.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-17-2004]

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 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 8:04 PM Phat has not replied

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 Message 10 by Buzsaw, posted 01-16-2004 11:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 12 (78975)
01-16-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
01-16-2004 10:41 PM


Re: Ravi looks at the Post Modern Mind===>
Hi Phatboy. Thanks. Good stuff. I heard Ravi's message on Sky Angel where he stated your quotes. I listen to him nearly every week and agree that he has great insight. He is a native Indian (from India), converted to Christianity in the hospital after an attempted suicide as a youth. He debates and speaks as a Christian apologist in many universities and other arenas around the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 10:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 12 (79216)
01-18-2004 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
01-16-2004 8:04 PM


Don't Letcha Dogma Back Over Ya Karma
Phats: "Perhaps your point is this: Dogma merely means that the spiritual authority propagated by the Church is not an absolute for everyone."
While true, that is not my point.
One of my points was that dogma doesn't just pop out of thin air, but is constructed over a period of time by theocratic politicians for purposes like satisfying their greed, hunger for power, to satisfy their perverse pleasures including watching others squirm in fear or lock step in mass hysteria, and of course, to guarantee their own self-perpetuation at the top of the heap.
To accomplish their psychotic agenda, the theocratic politicians employ propaganda to market their dogma. The more well-constructed the dogma is the more likely that lost souls will buy it. Usually the program includes hypnotic elements to break down the audience's intellectual defenses ... smoke, aroma, color enhancement, parlor tricks, laser light shows, primal rhythmic beats, vocal chants, false promises delivered in calming tones, etc.
Of course, cultural pre-indoctrination of the audience by folk tales, hero myths, and a body of fixed social morals makes the job easier for the theocratic politicians so long as they infuse or imbellish their dogma and propaganda with the imbedded tales, myths, and mores.
Now do you see any similarities between selling religious dogma and selling gansta rap?
Peace in the Hood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-16-2004 8:04 PM Phat has replied

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 Message 12 by Phat, posted 01-18-2004 2:42 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 12 (79242)
01-18-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Abshalom
01-18-2004 11:26 AM


Re: Don't Letcha Dogma Back Over Ya Karma
I see your point, Abshalom. As enquiring critics, we have to be able to judge where the inerrent teachings end and the fallible human agenda begins! Perhaps a good place is where the dollar sign starts!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Abshalom, posted 01-18-2004 11:26 AM Abshalom has not replied

  
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