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Author Topic:   Why, if god limited man's life to 120 years, did people live longer?
John
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 230 (27765)
12-24-2002 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by shilohproject
12-22-2002 10:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
I have heard it preached many times that this refered to "spiritual" death, which would allow for the obvious contradiction between the threat/promise and the recorded story, which includes a life for Adam & Eve much longer than midnight of that day.
I have also heard this preached.
quote:
Of course, that is not what the text says. What are your thoughts?
Early Judaism had no strong concept of a spiritual world. The religion was very much earthly. Punishment is always done on earth to the guilty and his children. So claiming that it means "spiritual death" is a big stretch. It is very far out of the context of the religion.
The story is a power play between two gods that has been cleaned up to give the impression of monotheism.
Have a look at the definition of the Hebrew word used for 'death.'
04191 muwth {mooth}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1169; v
AV - die 424, dead 130, slay 100, death 83, surely 50, kill 31,
dead man 3, dead body 2, in no wise 2, misc 10; 835
1) to die, kill, have one executed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to die
1a2) to die (as penalty), be put to death
1a3) to die, perish (of a nation)
1a4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
1b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
1c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
1d) (Hophal)
1d1) to be killed, be put to death
1d1a) to die prematurely
Do you see any spiritual aspects?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by shilohproject, posted 12-22-2002 10:15 PM shilohproject has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:23 PM John has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 230 (27917)
12-26-2002 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by John
12-24-2002 12:04 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
The story is a power play between two gods that has been cleaned up to give the impression of monotheism.
Do you see any spiritual aspects?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure about the two-god power-play. It seems to me more likely that we have two traditions being combined to give each side a say in the matter. (Notice the conflict in the creation stories is always predicted by a change in the name for diety; God v. Lord God, which is not explained by saying that one is simply an embellishment of the root. They are two seperate words being translated.)
Your help with the definition of "die" served to bolster my earlier belief in the non-literalistic nature of Genesis for most topics, incl. evo v. creationism.
No, I see no spiritual aspects to the passage. It says, "You will die," not, "You will die spiritually." The question for the literalist is simple: Does the Bible mean what it says and say what it means?
The Bible is very important to me. I am very active in my church, as are my wife and four children. We have never felt handicapped by an inability to accept the literalistic approach to scripture. In fact, my own spiritual life is greatly enhanced by looking into what a passage may tell me about the nature of God, and my responsibility to that, rather than how some primative people saw the world around them thousands of years ago.
Pork loin is perfectly fine! (We have one in the fridge right now.)
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by John, posted 12-24-2002 12:04 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by John, posted 12-30-2002 3:51 PM shilohproject has not replied
 Message 49 by doctrbill, posted 12-30-2002 10:20 PM shilohproject has replied
 Message 54 by Apeman, posted 01-07-2003 7:11 AM shilohproject has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 230 (28127)
12-30-2002 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 12:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
I'm not sure about the two-god power-play. It seems to me more likely that we have two traditions being combined to give each side a say in the matter.
As you point out, there is evidence that two traditions were combined. What I was refering to was the interplay between the Hebrew God and the Serpent in the Garden. Very similar stories occur in myths from the area.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:23 PM shilohproject has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 49 of 230 (28154)
12-30-2002 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 12:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
I see no spiritual aspects to the passage. It says, "You will die," not, "You will die spiritually." The question for the literalist is simple: Does the Bible mean what it says and say what it means?
I believe the story intends to show that the Gods are less than honest.
They told the man he would die "in the day" he ate the fruit. The serpent said, you won't and he didn't.
The serpent predicted that humans would become "like gods" which they did, by the gods' own admission - "the man has become like one of us".
Thus, the serpent was truthful and the gods were not.
The question, as I see it, is not so much, "Does the Bible mean what it says?" but rather - "Why do gods lie?"
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:23 PM shilohproject has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by shilohproject, posted 01-03-2003 2:40 PM doctrbill has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 230 (28359)
01-03-2003 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by doctrbill
12-30-2002 10:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
you won't[/i] and he didn't.
The serpent predicted that humans would become "like gods" which they did, by the gods' own admission - "the man has become like one of us".
Thus, the serpent was truthful and the gods were not.
The question, as I see it, is not so much, "Does the Bible mean what it says?" but rather - "Why do gods lie?" [/QUOTE] ______________________________________________________________
DoctrBill,
If this is to be your question, then it must follow that you accept the story as literalistic, historical fact. Otherwise, reliance on the report in Genesis to speak to us about the nature and characteristics of God (or, as you put it, "gods")is faulty.
My suggestion is that these stories are not to be taken literalisticly at all. Rather they are in keeping with many cosmological myths, in that area and elsewhere. They attempt to explain the existance of good and evil, man's relationship to man, and our relationship to God, as best we may understand and express it.
My take on all this does not really allow for a historical acceptance of these passages, rather a spiritual one. When we discuss them as telling us more about God than ourselves, the conversation spirals into absurd circular logic that fails too easily. There are too many obvious problems with the text as history, internal contradiction, and observable fact, i.e. YEC, ID as typically accepted, "chosen people," etc.
Ultimately, the definitions we use will fail us, too. Among Muslims there is the arguement that Christianity is not monotheistic, defining God-Father, Son & Holy Spirit as three seperately worshipped dieties. Most Christians would disagree, of course, as would I.
What is a "god" to you? Do you rely on the text as historically meaningful outside a cultural context? Does the passage tell you more about how you see "god(s)" than about yourself/us? These are the things which may define, in part, this discussion.
Have fun,
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by doctrbill, posted 12-30-2002 10:20 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by shilohproject, posted 01-03-2003 2:42 PM shilohproject has not replied
 Message 52 by doctrbill, posted 01-03-2003 7:55 PM shilohproject has replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 230 (28361)
01-03-2003 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by shilohproject
01-03-2003 2:40 PM


Hey, How do I get my quotes in the right format?
I'm feeling like the odd man out!
Help,
Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by shilohproject, posted 01-03-2003 2:40 PM shilohproject has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 52 of 230 (28382)
01-03-2003 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by shilohproject
01-03-2003 2:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill: "Why do gods lie?"
quote:
Original reply by shilohproject:
If this is to be your question, then it must follow that you accept the story as literalistic, historical fact. ...
Not at all.
quote:
shilohproject: What is a "god" to you?
Generically speaking, a god is a force, someone or something which the average person is powerless to assist or oppose. A god is visible or invisible, excellent, insurmountable, and unsurpassed. A god may be major or minor, good or evil, faithful or fickle, liberating or enslaving, joy bringing or a pain in the butt. A god is often what one establishes as having ultimate value for ones self. A god may be real or imaginary, literal or metaphorical, here or there. Love is a god; money is a god; the Bible is a god; and Martha Stewart is a goddess.
Gods have been created in many forms. The Judeo/Christian/Muslim God was created in the image of man. All the princes of Israel were called gods by Jehovah (the head God), and Moses was promoted to god-hood, by Jehovah, when he sent him to Egypt. Jesus was declared a god by his followers, and Mohammed has been made a god by his followers.
Gods come and gods go, but the universe keeps turning 'round, and the universe don't care.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by shilohproject, posted 01-03-2003 2:40 PM shilohproject has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by shilohproject, posted 01-03-2003 9:28 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 230 (28383)
01-03-2003 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by doctrbill
01-03-2003 7:55 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill: "Why do gods lie?"
quote:
Original reply by shilohproject:
If this is to be your question, then it must follow that you accept the story as literalistic, historical fact. ...
[quote Doctrbill]
Not at all.______________________________________________
If not, you have a relevance problem. I have bothered to read your previous posts and believe that surely you must understand the relationship between these two pints.
If the story is not literalisticly true and/or historically accurate, then it tells us nothing at all (necessarily) about god/s and their tendencies to lie or not.
It seems more reasonable, to me, that you are simply stirring the pot with this suggestion, since you do not seem to believe that Genesis is in any way an accurate telling of an actual event. Nor do I.
One can not deny the validity of a source and then quote that same source as telling him anything of literalistic value.
quote:
shilohproject: What is a "god" to you?
[quote doctrbill]Generically speaking, a god is a force, someone or something which the average person is powerless to assist or oppose. A god is visible or invisible, excellent, insurmountable, and unsurpassed. A god may be major or minor, good or evil, faithful or fickle, liberating or enslaving, joy bringing or a pain in the butt. A god is often what one establishes as having ultimate value for ones self. A god may be real or imaginary, literal or metaphorical, here or there. Love is a god; money is a god; the Bible is a god; and Martha Stewart is a goddess. (end quote)___________________
While I agree with you in the general sense/usage of the word, this definition is not always useful in a conversation of this nature. Martha Stewart, notwithstanding.
db
[quote] Gods have been created in many forms. The Judeo/Christian/Muslim God was created in the image of man. All the princes of Israel were called gods by Jehovah (the head God), and Moses was promoted to god-hood, by Jehovah, when he sent him to Egypt. Jesus was declared a god by his followers, and Mohammed has been made a god by his followers.
Gods come and gods go, but the universe keeps turning 'round, and the universe don't care.
db[/B]
Neither must it care about our opinions or thoughtful posts, but we have fun with it anyway.
Thanks,
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by doctrbill, posted 01-03-2003 7:55 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
Apeman
Inactive Junior Member


Message 54 of 230 (28574)
01-07-2003 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 12:23 PM


I don't get why people all think that a day in the bible always means 24 hours, in my day we didn't have a problem with words or groups of words that mean one thing one time and then another thing another time.
Take 1st Kings chapter 12 verse 5 and 12, it says 3 days but it means bits of the 1st and 3rd days and all the 2nd day, and Matthew chapter twelve verse 40 is a bit like it. Surely people today can see that for themselves, surely they don't need it spelled out for them.
Sometimes a day is a distance like in Numbers chapter 11 verse 31, and in Zecharia chapter 14 verse 8 a day continues in summer and winter, but in this day and age people can't seem to get there heads around all that. They obviously didn't have that trouble in Jesus day or Moses day or any of the prophets days.
And its not just me whos saying this, you can get a book called 'A Religious Encyclopedia' and see what he says about how long a day can last.
In 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 8 a thousand years is as one day, you could look at Psalms chapter 90 verse 4 too and Ezekiel chapter 4 verse 6 and Numbers 14 verse 34.
Sometimes a day means 24 hours and other times it just means the light part of that 24 hours. I hope you get that one day.
Sometimes day and days means any length of time, especially if a special event happens, like in Genesis chapter 5 verse 5 all the days that Adam lived were 390 years.
I don't find that hard to understand, its as clear as day to me, so when Genesis says that God did so and so on such and such a day, Yohm in Hebrew, but it doesn't say how long that day was, I just think, so what? Good for him! If one day lasted thousands of years and another one lasted a few hours who cares? At the end of the day if God doesn't think I need to know exactly then that's good enough for me.
And in Genesis 2 verse 17 when God told Adam no to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because in that day he will die, but, again, doesn't say how long that day was, again, I think so what? The thing to understand is that Adam did disobey , they got chucked out of Eden and did die. I know that day was nearly nearly a thousand years because of Genesis 5 verse 5 but it wouldn't matter to me if Adam's day was as long as Charles dickens day or Charles Darwins day or anyone else's day. He still lost the day when God called it a day. But what interests me in all this is that because of the fall in Eden nobody ever since has been allowed to live forever as it says in Romans chapter 5 verse 12. That's more important than worrying about how long different days last.
In Genesis chapter 2 vers 4 where it says that, a day is a collection of days. In chapter one verse 5 its periods of light and darkness evening and morning. So what? God has given man a bible which has stood the test of time from generation to generation for the people who read it all and do so with common sense. In spite of opposition he has made sure we've gotten to know everything we need to know at any time.
Rest assured that if anybody really needed to know how long all this stuff took he would have told us. You can't read the bible like any other book but once you get used to it it all makes sense.
All quotes are from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:23 PM shilohproject has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by John, posted 01-07-2003 9:48 AM Apeman has not replied
 Message 56 by shilohproject, posted 01-07-2003 2:52 PM Apeman has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 230 (28582)
01-07-2003 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Apeman
01-07-2003 7:11 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Apeman:
In 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 8 a thousand years is as one day, you could look at Psalms chapter 90 verse 4 too and Ezekiel chapter 4 verse 6 and Numbers 14 verse 34.
Sometimes a day means 24 hours and other times it just means the light part of that 24 hours. I hope you get that one day.
Sometimes day and days means any length of time, especially if a special event happens, like in Genesis chapter 5 verse 5 all the days that Adam lived were 390 years.

I asked a Rabbi point blank if the Hebrew 'yowm' can be used this way and he looked at me like I was insane. I asked several other Hebrew speakers and they all concur.
So I look up the the ancient Hebrew 'yowm' and find that 'yowm' means 'evening to sunset'. Continuing the search I find many references to the 'fact' that Hebrew scholars know that 'yowm' can mean a length of time greater than 24 hours, but what is curious is that I can find no references to the actual works of those scholars. The only solid reference I found is Strong's, which reads:
3117 yowm (yome);
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adverb]
Taken from: No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.bibleprobe.org/credible.html
In Genesis 2:4 we have 'byowm' -- in the day. This is an adverbial clause and so may fit the last portion of the Strong's reference. The adverbial form does not appear in the first chapter of Genesis, so it seem the best you can do is conclude that 'in the day' of Genesis 2 refers to the seven days of Genesis 1.
If I see the Rabbi today, I'll ask about this usage.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Apeman, posted 01-07-2003 7:11 AM Apeman has not replied

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 230 (28608)
01-07-2003 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Apeman
01-07-2003 7:11 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Apeman:
I don't get why people all think that a day in the bible always means 24 hours, in my day we didn't have a problem with words or groups of words that mean one thing one time and then another thing another time.
.

Apeman,
Your post has gone some great distance in expressing the inconsistancies and contradictions in a literalistic reading of the Bible.
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Apeman, posted 01-07-2003 7:11 AM Apeman has not replied

  
nO_JeZeBeL
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 230 (366275)
11-27-2006 12:00 PM


The days of our years by Dr David Menton
Edited by AdminModulous, : Copyrighted material removed, link to material added.

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by AdminWounded, posted 11-27-2006 12:31 PM nO_JeZeBeL has not replied

  
nO_JeZeBeL
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 230 (366278)
11-27-2006 12:07 PM


Living for 900 years, by Carl Wieland
Edited by AdminAsgara, : fixed img size to adjust page width
Edited by AdminModulous, : Copyrighted material removed, link to material added.

  
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 230 (366293)
11-27-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by nO_JeZeBeL
11-27-2006 12:00 PM


Please do not post large cut and pastes
This post is simply a cut and paste from 'Answer's in Genesis'.
Any further postings of this nature may result in your suspension.
If you wish to familiarise yourself with our forum guidelines go to this link.
TTFN,
AW
Edited by AdminWounded, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by nO_JeZeBeL, posted 11-27-2006 12:00 PM nO_JeZeBeL has not replied

  
nO_JeZeBeL
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 230 (366307)
11-27-2006 12:50 PM


is that all you do....
avoid the substance and change topic.
what a waste of time this forum is...
i thought it is a place to find answers...
looks like the evolutionists here will never find the answers to the many questions i noticed...
cut and paste? so what! what exactly are peoples opinions?
at school they cut and paste the nonsense that their masonic textbooks tell them to believe, then spout it on here...
what is the difference between this type of cut and pasting and a more direct one which debates the questions at hand?

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by AdminWounded, posted 11-27-2006 12:54 PM nO_JeZeBeL has not replied
 Message 65 by AdminModulous, posted 11-27-2006 1:35 PM nO_JeZeBeL has not replied

  
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