The "Circle of the Earth"

In English, perhaps. That is why we explore earlier versions. FYI: 'fluid' is a form of matter. Yes. They do. And how is that "without form?" What present environment would you say is "without form?"

---

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

The question is, "Why would He?" What appurtenances outside of God could possibly make His travel "in style"? How could anything aside from God be relevant? Again, a very belittling picture of God, suggesting He isn't here all the time. As somebody has already mentioned, the horizon is always seen as a circle. The ancient writers would have recognized that the higher you get, say on a mountain top, the bigger that circle is. The verse implies that God is higher than any mountain top, higher than man can ever get.Your "orbit" brings Him down to a height that man can attain.The verse is "bang on" enough already without a lot of science-fiction claptrap embellishments.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

You're right. That would be silly.

---

In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)

quote:

---

In English, perhaps. That is why we explore earlier versions.

---

Doesn't matter from the Hebrew, it is still unknown, really how it was meant, precisely.

quote:

---

FYI: 'fluid' is a form of matter.

---

True, so the bible commentary you quoted feels there was matter here. So?? Something wrong with matter?

quote:

---

Yes. They do. And how is that "without form?"

---

Well, one supposes that, according to their take, the translation should be read a bit like 'without present form'! Or, perhaps, without after creation week form' etc. Simple.

quote:

---

What present environment would you say is "without form?"

---

Now that He already done formed the earth, how is it you would expect to find parts of it still unformed??One might grab for some features of this already formed earth, to try and get some rough comparison. I might grab at the La Brea tar pits, but that is so rough, it isn't meant to really nail the pre formed earth, where the waters were not yet separated from the land.

Thank you. One must try to see things in the perspective they were framed. DNA is not something of the size, and ability to come in from the heavens, accompanied by angels, carrying the Ancient of Days, and His sapphire throne. That is elementary.

quote:

---

The question is, "Why would He?" What appurtenances outside of God could possibly make His travel "in style"? How could anything aside from God be relevant?

---

It is inter dimensional, and comfy, and the angels that like to tag along are accommodated?

quote:

---

Again, a very belittling picture of God, suggesting He isn't here all the time.

---

Why would He hang out on this sinful speck all the time?? He will move here forever when the new heavens come, but, even then, I guess He likes to boggie around. This will just be the HQ. The central command. The universe hub.
If you mean that His spirit is in all, and all that sort of thing, yes. In that sense, He is always here. If we mean the God body, why, how else could He have a circuit of the expanse of the heavens, if He always stayed put??

quote:

---

As somebody has already mentioned, the horizon is always seen as a circle. The ancient writers would have recognized that the higher you get, say on a mountain top, the bigger that circle is. The verse implies that God is higher than any mountain top, higher than man can ever get.

​

Your "orbit" brings Him down to a height that man can attain.

---

They could NOT attain an orbit then. They had to hustle to try and build a tower to the heavens, in the time of Babel. In the time of the major prophets, they still had no rockets, or even planes, if you recall!
So, of note would be a ship that did just that. Besides, man could not BEGIN to go where the mobile sapphire throne of God can. We barely got to the moon.No biblical need at all to limit God, or His throne, and call what was described an embellishment. Man's limited imagination needs some embellishment, having been tied down for so long by the boring limits of poor little science.

please read the entire chapter. in fact, read revelation while you're at it. if i, mister "overliteral," am inclined to say any books are pretty strictly metaphor, it's these two. and the vast majority of jewish commentary agrees.in any case, god's throne is not "a flying saucer" or even one of ezekiel's "wheels within wheels." if you read the description, there are four such wheels, as well as four drivers, forming the basis of god's chariot. the whole contraption is called the merkabah.in no way is it circular. this is missing the entire point of the verse. god does not see men as grasshoppers because he drives a UFO. he sees men as grasshoppers because he is all powerful. the height issue, having god be above earth, is secondary to that meaning of the verse -- you are attempting to rob the verse of its meaning and belittle god, just to stick him in a UFO.

---

Irrelevant. People reading the text today would put God in the So What category if He was in a mere orbit.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Is anyone else reminded of that scene in The Life of Brian?

---

In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)

no, i'm not. but this is why one who really wants to understand the bible better tends to learn at least one of the languages it was written in. even the most idiomatic translations don't butcher dualisms like that -- so the concept is simply lost across translations. i think we're speaking past each other. the authors did fully intend to describe everything, all land, but their concept thereof probably didn't extend far past egypt in on direction and turkey in the other. and their concept certainly wasn't shaped like a globe. and that's sort of what we're talking about in this thread -- their concept of the "planet" as a flat, circular area. any reading that invokes quantum mechanics is probably flawed. err, no, more like "when god began creating everything, the earth did not exist." don't forget the very first word of genesis, b'reishit. don't mix up the two stories. it'll only confuse the issues. genesis 2 is a completely separate tradition. and the text doesn't say the land the was under the water, but it heavily implies it: when the water is collected into specific places, dry land first appears. before that point, the only logical reading is that land was under the water, or part of the water. that's a rather traditional understanding, yes. the sea, like darkness before light, exists without land, but is merely defined by the contrast. the land, on the other hand, does not. i think the best reading is that the land had not separated from the water -- it needs to be dry before it's called "land." i think then the best description is that it did not exist. well, yes, but we can talk about their idea of the cosmos as a whole. which is what i think genesis 1 is doing, and what the verse in question in this thread is doing.

---

quote:

---

please read the entire chapter. in fact, read revelation while you're at it. if i, mister "overliteral," am inclined to say any books are pretty strictly metaphor, it's these two. and the vast majority of jewish commentary agrees.

---

Why, what might I find in those readings of relevance?

quote:

---

in any case, god's throne is not "a flying saucer" or even one of ezekiel's "wheels within wheels." if you read the description, there are four such wheels, as well as four drivers, forming the basis of god's chariot. the whole contraption is called the merkabah.

​

in no way is it circular.

---

So a wheel can't be circular? What were they, in your opinion, square?? Reinventing the wheel, here, much??

quote:

---

this is missing the entire point of the verse. god does not see men as grasshoppers because he drives a UFO. he sees men as grasshoppers because he is all powerful. the height issue, having god be above earth, is secondary to that meaning of the verse -- you are attempting to rob the verse of its meaning and belittle god, just to stick him in a UFO.

---

That is your opinion, that the REASON we are referred to as little bugs, is because of some highfalutin reason other than we were way down there. I mean, I see men as bugs in a plane, does that mean I am all powerful??? Therefore it is not I attempting to belittle God in any way. In fact, where is it, precisely you put Him, IF ANYWHERE!!!???

False. Today, we are not escorted by what was it, four angels with wheels of their own! neither do we appear like the Almighty, and ride in a sapphire throne. Nothing ho hum at all about that.

the common theme of four animals. no. wheels are round. your car has four wheels. it must be a circle, right? um, yes. the bible is a religious text. it talks about the majesty and power of god in many places, such as this. making god into a measly space alien zipping about in his UFO kind of takes away from that. i challenge you to make out individual human forms from 30,000 feet.and you've still got the horse planted firmly behind the cart. the text is about the all-powerful nature of god. look at the VERY NEXT VERSE

quote:

---

Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

---

that god looks down on man from the heavens and sees everything is one aspect of his almightly power. it's not about god zipping around in a flying saucer. it's about the power of god. the verse puts him in heaven.

---

quote:

---

the common theme of four animals.

---

Well, if these things flew with the Ancient of days, that means they reallyget around. That would be about as surprising as seeing some secret service folks around the president of the USA.

quote:

---

no. wheels are round. your car has four wheels. it must be a circle, right?

---

""Ezekiel saw a wheel, way up in the middle of the air; the big wheel ran by faith and the little wheel ran by the grace of God, a wheel in a wheel, away in the middle of the air.") Ezekiel saw that these wheels were turning, one wheel within the other. As he watched he also saw a firmament above, shining in splendor, and above the firmament, as he lifted his eyes higher, he saw a throne. And on the throne sat a man."
http://pbc.org/library/files/html/0226.htmlMost people I have heard speak about this think of it as wheels within wheels. I suppose you could imagine a car shape if you wish, though I have no need to stick a pope mobile on the wheels, myself.

quote:

---

um, yes. the bible is a religious text. it talks about the majesty and power of god in many places, such as this. making god into a measly space alien zipping about in his UFO kind of takes away from that.

---

I disagree. Him tripping around this and all universes in a sapphire throne, in a God body, I think is better than just some ethereal, no name, eunuchized, impersonal, concept of Him.

quote:

---

i challenge you to make out individual human forms from 30,000 feet.

---

I challenge you to prove that it was 30,000 feet! And to prove that God can't see a lot better than us as well!!!

quote:

---

and you've still got the horse planted firmly behind the cart. the text is about the all-powerful nature of god. look at the VERY NEXT VERSE

​

quote:Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

---

I can say, 'there goes Anachophilia, riding in a VW, painted orange, with four inflatable dummies in the car as well'. Then I could go on to say, 'That guy spent years in school, and was an important professor at one time'The last bit does not mean I could not also note the vehicle.

quote:

---

that god looks down on man from the heavens and sees everything is one aspect of his almightly power. it's not about god zipping around in a flying saucer. it's about the power of god.

---

He can look down from a lot higher up, and does, and can see everything. But that doesn't mean He also can't come down to earth in His flying wheels at leisure. Heaven is a big place. God is more than just the Father as well!

quote:

---

Therefore it is not I attempting to belittle God in any way. In fact, where is it, precisely you put Him, IF ANYWHERE!!!???

​

the verse puts him in heaven.

---

But I never asked where you thought that verse put Him, or what part of heaven. I asked you where YOU thought He was. I did that, since you accused me of belittling Him. I was digging, to find out if you even believed in Him at all! If not, of course, who is belittling what here!!??

Shackling God to any material contrivance is utterly demeaning.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC