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Author Topic:   Origin of Gods word
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 91 of 200 (146315)
09-30-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Amlodhi
09-30-2004 12:45 PM


In all fairness, this story was fairly widespread at an early date
well, yes. they may have shared the same source.
i would argue that there's too many specifics in line to say that it's just a coincidence of a traditional story, although this is still possible. i think the case is very good for the authors getting it from babylonian legend, considering the vast babylonian influence present in the rest of the texts.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 200 (146323)
09-30-2004 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Trump won
09-30-2004 8:42 PM


As a historian you use written documents to discover history.
Written documents are one thing that is used, but not a very reliable means until verified by other things, ruins, pottery, tools, multiple written sources, geology, remains.
And this is where the Bible has some problems. Many, many of the historical accounts simply are not borne out by other evidence. In addition, so many of the stories seem to be rewrites of earlier mythology.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 93 of 200 (146329)
09-30-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Trump won
09-30-2004 8:16 PM


Read the text again. The text is claiming that "This is the story told by the Torah" not "This is the absolute literal truth".

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 94 of 200 (146333)
09-30-2004 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by arachnophilia
09-30-2004 8:49 PM


ill get back to u homework

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 95 of 200 (146334)
09-30-2004 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by DrJones*
09-30-2004 9:09 PM


nothings abosolute literal truth. Historians have to base evidence from writing.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 96 of 200 (146339)
09-30-2004 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Trump won
09-30-2004 9:21 PM


ill get back to u homework
i'll get back to you as well, going out to watch the debate.

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 97 of 200 (146356)
09-30-2004 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Trump won
09-30-2004 9:22 PM


Sure they base some of their conclusions on writing, but they also use cold hard facts like archeology. Does your textbook back up the exodus with archeological facts? if not then its just repeating what the Torah claims and is not stating that this the truth and therefore the exodus isn't being taught as fact as you claimed back in message 52.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 98 of 200 (146368)
09-30-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Trump won
09-30-2004 8:42 PM


You do more than that. You also look at artifacts, There are also corrosponding documents in the culture they alledgely went to and came from.. (total, none)

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 99 of 200 (146376)
09-30-2004 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Trump won
09-30-2004 7:28 PM


CHRIS PORTEUS jr writes:
I would think Egypt would have greater influence
Egypt did have a great influence on Israel, especially when they were living there; but the events at Mt. Sinai clearly suggest that the Mesopotamian model was preferred by Moses.
The Moses character seems intent on minimizing the effects of Egyptian influence. The Law of Moses contains a number of elements which follow Mesopotamian law almost word for word. Moses promotes the Mesopotamian calendar and the dietary restriction on consumption of pork.
If I am not mistaken, the rite of circumcision is also of Mesopotamian origin. I'd bet there are other evidences of which I am currently unaware.
db

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 100 of 200 (146643)
10-01-2004 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
09-30-2004 8:58 PM


quote:
Written documents are one thing that is used, but not a very reliable means until verified by other things, ruins, pottery, tools, multiple written sources, geology, remains.
My point was that sometimes that's all they have.
quote:
Many, many of the historical accounts simply are not borne out by other evidence. In addition, so many of the stories seem to be rewrites of earlier mythology.
This could be used as evidence for either side depending on your perspective.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 101 of 200 (146644)
10-01-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by doctrbill
09-30-2004 11:36 PM


quote:
Egypt did have a great influence on Israel, especially when they were living there; but the events at Mt. Sinai clearly suggest that the Mesopotamian model was preferred by Moses.
Zoraster(probably sic)? Polytheism? The Sumerians religion was much different believing in a dreary afterlife.

-porcelain

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 102 of 200 (146645)
10-01-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ramoss
09-30-2004 10:27 PM


quote:
You do more than that. You also look at artifacts
Sometimes written text and the outcome of where the people are is all that's available.
Is it accepted that the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians? If so there must have been an exodus.

-porcelain

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 103 of 200 (146646)
10-01-2004 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by DrJones*
09-30-2004 9:42 PM


quote:
Does your textbook back up the exodus with archeological facts? if not then its just repeating what the Torah claims and is not stating that this the truth and therefore the exodus isn't being taught as fact as you claimed back in message 52.
THere must be a conclusion to how and why they left Egypt. The best evidence there is to what happened is the written text.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 200 (146648)
10-01-2004 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Trump won
10-01-2004 10:20 PM


My point was that sometimes that's all they have.
This thread is on the Origin of God's word, IOW, the Bible. Fortunately, when it comes to the Bible there is lots of other evidence, or lack of evidence where there should be evidence. Some things can be confirmed, many others are unsupported and many of the key things in the Bible such as the creation story, the flood, the Exodus have no outside support and there is a large body of refuting evidence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 105 of 200 (146649)
10-01-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by arachnophilia
09-30-2004 8:49 PM


quote:
it's not a question of whether or not they copied from the babylonians, they certainly did.
and last time i checked, abram was from a place called ur. ur was a city in sumeria.
Two civilizations can't view creation the same way? I would tend to think that would give accuracy to genesis. I think the oldest civilization would have good authority to speak of creation.
quote:
so that's the tail end of sameul/kings and chronicles, and isaiah? every textual clue tells us the bible is not recording history, but conveying messages, often from very different view points. yes, some of the events happened. but some of them we have absolutely no evidence for, like the exodus.
Yeah
quote:
and the history channel has documentaries on it. it doesn't mean they're right. the text can't even reach a conclusive date on it happening (year wise).
as for a good variety of historical information... well. what books would you call history? at the very most we're limited to genesis through chronicles as arranged in the christian bible, sans a book or two like leviticus.
I remember seeing it and they portrayed the Biblical account of winning, do you know what their evidences were?
Do any of these links on this site have a case?
http://www.jcsm.org/misc/TheExodus.htm
This message has been edited by CHRIS PORTEUS jr, 10-01-2004 09:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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