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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 121 of 1540 (821054)
10-01-2017 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:41 PM


Actually I was just echoing a pretty standard response to anything that smacks of "Salvation by Works". Which the idea that you can just choose to believe and be saved seems to come under.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:49 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 122 of 1540 (821055)
10-01-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
10-01-2017 4:45 PM


Yeah but that's just sophistry. Choosing to believe in a certain sense isn't possible, but if you really would choose to believe then you already believe and believing is what God asks of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2017 4:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2017 4:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 123 of 1540 (821056)
10-01-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:49 PM


It's your sophistry.
Choosing or not choosing Christ certainly affects our salvation. (...that whosoever believes on Him should have eternal life.).

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 Message 122 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:49 PM Faith has not replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 1540 (821058)
10-01-2017 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:26 PM


Faith writes:
That's all it took for Adam and Eve to lose their standing with God, and most of us commit sins against the Moral Law every day.
Except of course for the fact that in the Bible Adam & Eve did not lose their standing with God or earn eternal damnation . That is all crap that the Christian snake oil salesmen and conmen made up.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:26 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 1540 (821061)
10-01-2017 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
10-01-2017 4:55 PM


Paulk writes:
It's your sophistry.
Choosing or not choosing Christ certainly affects our salvation.
Sophistry indeed. Particularly when you spread a layer of Calvinism on top of it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 1540 (821068)
10-02-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
10-01-2017 5:27 PM


Snake Eyes
Except of course for the fact that in the Bible Adam & Eve did not lose their standing with God or earn eternal damnation.
They would eventually die, however. For some reason, God posted a guard at the tree of life. They had to work for a living and become responsible, rather than get a free pass to eternity.
The snake lied. They did not become as gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 10-01-2017 5:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2017 9:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 128 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 9:44 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 1540 (821077)
10-02-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
10-02-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
quote:
The snake lied. They did not become as gods.
The serpent only said that they would become as gods in the sense of knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:5). The story clearly says that they did (e.g. Genesis 3:22)
So no, the serpent didn't lie about that. Odd how many people miss that, even though it is quite obviously there.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 1540 (821078)
10-02-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
10-02-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Phat writes:
They would eventually die, however. For some reason, God posted a guard at the tree of life.
Not exactly Phat. The God was afraid that they would eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal. It was the God characters fear that led to the expulsion from the Garden and the guard on the gate.
Of course all the other critters were free to eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal yet their is no evidence of any immortal animals.
Phat writes:
They had to work for a living and become responsible, rather than get a free pass to eternity.
There is nothing about any free pass in the story.
Phat writes:
The snake lied. They did not become as gods.
Again Phat, that is NOT what the story says; the story clearly says and the God character confirms that the Snake tells the truth and the God lies. They do not surely die the day they eat from the Tree of Knowledge and according to the God character they do become like God to know right from wrong.
Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 9:57 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 1540 (821079)
10-02-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
10-02-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
The issue seems to be that Biblical Christians don't like what the Bible actually says and so they make up additional stories to believe instead of what is actually there.
There was a marvelous movie that we were taken to see (I was a boarder at a Christian Church School) back in 1960 IIRC called Never on Sunday. The main character was Ilya, a Greek Prostitute who loved the Greek Tragedies, but rewrote them to always have a happy ending with everyone going to the beach for a party.
Biblical Christians are just like Ilya.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 130 of 1540 (821080)
10-02-2017 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
10-02-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat?
You always say this and frankly its arrogant. Why not pull up a stump and set a spell...you might actually learn something new. As may I.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 9:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 10:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 1540 (821081)
10-02-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
10-02-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Are you suggesting that reality involves bad endings? I would certainly think that if we did become as gods we would make good endings. Perhaps Biblical Christians see God as always being on their side and can't conceive of a bad ending. Can you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 9:56 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 1540 (821082)
10-02-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
10-02-2017 9:57 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat?
You always say this and frankly its arrogant. Why not pull up a stump and set a spell...you might actually learn something new. As may I.
Bullshit. It is not arrogant when you post stuff like the snake lied in reference to the Genesis 2&3 story.
When you post something like that one really has to wonder if you ever read the story.
Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that reality involves bad endings? I would certainly think that if we did become as gods we would make good endings. Perhaps Biblical Christians see God as always being on their side and can't conceive of a bad ending. Can you?
Have you ever read anything?
Reality is.
Humans determine what good or bad is, what right or wrong is and that is the major point of the Genesis Garden of Eden story.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 9:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 10:11 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 1540 (821083)
10-02-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by jar
10-02-2017 10:05 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Humans determine what good or bad is, what right or wrong is and that is the major point of the Genesis Garden of Eden story.
I would argue, however, that we are far from gods. I was looking up the Strongs Hebrew for God and gods in the story and its the same word! That snake had the audacity to suggest that we were just like Elohim! The snake surely wasn't. The snake was cunning, which implies deceit. As a plot device, emphasizing that the snake told the truth and that God lied sorta throws a wrench in the whole concept of who the good guy and the bad guy are. I mean, how many cunning people do you know that end up tricking you by telling the truth? (Partial truths)
Edited by Phat, : added ranting

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 10:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 136 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2017 11:22 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 1540 (821084)
10-02-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
10-02-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Biblical Christians are just like Ilya.
Why do you think they elected Trump? They wanted a happy ending. Somebody is lying when one of the 1% promises prosperity and greatness for the 99%.
(I take back what I said about you being arrogant...im curious why the prostitute is like the Biblical Christians though...gotta watch that old movie.)
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 9:56 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 1540 (821087)
10-02-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
10-02-2017 10:11 AM


Try honesty Phat.
Phat writes:
I would argue, however, that we are far from gods.
Which, even if it were true is TOTALLY irrelevant to what the Garden of Eden story says. What you think the story should say, what you believe the story should say, is irrelevant when compared to reality and the reality is contained in what the story actually says.
Phat writes:
I was looking up the Strongs Hebrew for God and gods in the story and its the same word! That snake had the audacity to suggest that we were just like Elohim! The snake surely wasn't. The snake was cunning, which implies deceit. As a plot device, emphasizing that the snake told the truth and that God lied sorta throws a wrench in the whole concept of who the good guy and the bad guy are. I mean, how many cunning people do you know that end up tricking you by telling the truth? (Partial truths)
YAWN!
You prove my point Phat.
Strongs is NOT the Bible.
The snake in the story did not compare Adam or Eve to God but rather told the truth, that if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would become more like God.
And, in the story, the God character affirms that they did become more like God.
You want good guys and bad guys. Reality though, even in the Bible stories, is that life is NOT black and white. We determine good and bad. That knowledge requires accountability and judgement. It is not easy.
The authors of the stories were far more complex than today's audience. Biblical Christians, like Ilya, seem to want to rewrite the Greek Tragedies so that everyone is happy and they all go to the sea shore.
BUT... that is NOT what is written in the stories.
Knowing good from evil is not easy.
Knowing what should be done is not easy.
Jesus mission and message is NOT John 3:16. That is the author of John's marketing; the snake oil salesman's spiel.
The snake was honest. The God character was the one who withheld information and flat out lied.
But like Ilya, you don't want the complex ending. You want Medea and Jason and the kids to all go to the beach and live happily ever after.
But that is not what the story says.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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