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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 300 (333955)
07-21-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
07-21-2006 8:11 AM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
The idea that Israel would commit such a violation at all, and especially considering their position in public opinion, is absurd. Where is your evidence please? You are operating on faith in the Red Crescent it appears. There are KNOWN incidents of ambulances being used for military actions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2006 8:11 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2006 10:05 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 300 (333956)
07-21-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
07-21-2006 11:05 AM


Re: Hitting ambulances
Yes it could have been an accident but for Israel intentionally to target ambulances without knowledge is just ridiculous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 11:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 300 (333957)
07-21-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
07-21-2006 11:05 AM


Re: Hitting ambulances
Concerning the amulance matter, likely one or two medical vehicles were hit either accidently or due to suspected missuse
"Suspected misuse" is not a valid reason to violate the Geneva Conventions, to which Israel is a signatory.
Much as it's invalid to claim "suspected trickery" as a justification for shooting the doctor who's trying to treat you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 11:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6381 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 19 of 300 (334051)
07-21-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by lfen
07-21-2006 1:02 AM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
How can I have been so dumb???
Thanks for putting me straight.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by lfen, posted 07-21-2006 1:02 AM lfen has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 300 (334155)
07-21-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by MangyTiger
07-21-2006 12:17 AM


Re: For buz - why are Hezbollah's fighters cowards?
MT writes:
I'm intrigued on what basis you regard the Hezbollah fighters as cowards (I should point out I don't support Hezbollah's aims or methods, but I think you are wrong in this assessment).
Go figure. Cowards launch their rockets from civilian locations drawing fire to the target. They know that Israel's rockets hone in on the Hezbollah launch sight very accurately. Cowards fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets purposely hoping to kill as many as possible. Fortunately they are not accurate but do kill and destroy.
MT writes:
Now you may decry the launching of rockets and/or unguided missiles into Israeli cities but that's irrelevant to the point under discussion. The Israelis have total, 100% air supremacy and have demonstrated their willingness to not only destroy any rocket launcher that fires for more than a short time but also to attack any vehicle that looks even remotely like it might be carrying rockets while it is on the road.
That's incorrect. Israelli rockets hone in on the locations from which a ketusia rocket has been fired. They do not guess or fire indiscriminately into civilians as do the Hezbollah terrorist cowards.
MT writes:
This means any Hezbollah fighter who is operating a rocket lanucher or moving it from place to place is at serious risk of being blown up by an air strike that they have no defence against. If they were cowards they wouldn't have anybody firing the rockets.
In many cases they fire from vehicles and run.
MT writes:
As for fighting the IDF - again it's David against Goliath except this time Israel is Goliath. Hezbollah has no tanks, no self propelled guns, no heavy artillery (I haven't heard of them using anything bigger than mortars), no air support of any sort and is, at the end of the day, just a militia.
Well then they should not have started this war in which they knew they would have to fight like cowards against defenseless civilians.
MT writes:
So I have to ask again, on what basis do you describe them as cowards? Isn't this just an example of demonising your enemy?
I heard it on one of the Fox News segments but not sure which one.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by MangyTiger, posted 07-21-2006 12:17 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 300 (334160)
07-21-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
07-21-2006 10:57 PM


Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
Cowards launch their rockets from civilian locations drawing fire to the target. They know that Israel's rockets hone in on the Hezbollah launch sight very accurately. Cowards fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets purposely hoping to kill as many as possible. Fortunately they are not accurate but do kill and destroy.
I don't think cowardice describes this situation. They are doing this intentionally to set up Israel as the bad guys, and to make it especially difficult strategically for Israel, because Israel does have a conscience and doesn't want to harm civilians and they know it. They themselves couldn't care less about the civilians. I wouldn't call them cowards for that, more like sociopaths, criminals, murderers, evil men. They may in fact not be cowards at all when it comes to dying for their cause, so it's not a good term for them that way either. But their strategies of callously using and targeting innocent people makes them worse than cowards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 10:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 300 (334161)
07-21-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by MangyTiger
07-20-2006 11:50 PM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
MT writes:
Speaking of Isreal warning the inhabitants to leave, I suppose you're ok with the events at Marwaheen where the Isrealis warned the inhabitants they had hours to leave and then when a convy of families tried to leave they were butchered by an Israeli air strike.
Let's be very clear about the chain of events here:
The Israelis tell the inhabitants of a village they have hours to leave
The civilians obey the warning to get out
As civilians leave a village where the Israelis told them they had to get out they are attacked by an Israeli aircraft
Is it ok to order people to flee their homes and then slaughter them when they obey your order buz? Do you think maybe adjectives like ruthless or cowardly are applicable?
Even if this was a cock up rather than a deliberate act (I regard both as plausible explanations) Israel doesn't come out of this any better.
This from the International Tribune (Middle East paper). According to Israel, their rocket targeted this convoy because a katusia rocket had been fired from it, indicative of what I've been saying all along that the Hezbollah terrorists purposely draw fire to civilian targets not only to protect themselves but to get international sympathy for their terrorism. As usual the Western liberal press establishment didn't give the Israeli side of the story.
They were in a moving convoy and the EVIL COWARDS knew full well that by the time the responding missile came in they would be safely ahead of the civilians hit for the sole purpose of drawing international sympathy for their cause.
link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times - 44k

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by MangyTiger, posted 07-20-2006 11:50 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:11 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 300 (334162)
07-21-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-21-2006 11:09 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
I have to differ here, madear. Imo anyone who targets defenseless civilians is a coward no matter how you cut it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:09 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2290
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 24 of 300 (334164)
07-21-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
07-21-2006 11:13 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
Imo anyone who targets defenseless civilians is a coward no matter how you cut it.
Like the Israelis who blew up a civillian convoy.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 11:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:22 PM DrJones* has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 300 (334166)
07-21-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by DrJones*
07-21-2006 11:13 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
Like the Israelis who blew up a civillian convoy.
Not at all like. The Israelis don't TARGET civilians. The operative word is TARGET.
Sometimes the "civilians" aren't civilians but made to appear so by the terrorists; often the civilians were put in harm's way by the terrorists; otherwise, despite the best aimed weapons and the best intentions, mistakes are always made and people get hurt. But the terrorists TARGET civilians.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by DrJones*, posted 07-21-2006 11:13 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by DrJones*, posted 07-21-2006 11:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-21-2006 11:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 36 by Jaderis, posted 07-22-2006 7:12 AM Faith has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2290
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 26 of 300 (334168)
07-21-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
07-21-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
The Israelis don't TARGET civilians
Says who? The israelis? Not that I'm on Hezbollah's side but just cause Israel says they made a mistake doesn't mean that I believe them.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:22 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 12:14 AM DrJones* has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 300 (334176)
07-21-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
07-21-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
But the terrorists TARGET civilians.
Well, let's look at the situation in Lebanon. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC Israel is pissed because Hezbollah targeted Israeli Military, two soldiers I believe.
Military target Faith.
In return, Israel attacked civilians. Please point out the Military targets Israel has selected if you believe you can.
Or do Israeli Soldiers count as civilians under your scenario?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6381 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 28 of 300 (334179)
07-22-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
07-21-2006 11:09 PM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
You need to work on your comprehension skills buz.
buz incorrectly writes:
This from the International Tribune (Middle East paper). According to Israel, their rocket targeted this convoy because a katusia rocket had been fired from it
What the International Tribune actually writes:
link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times - 44k
Your own source, which you even quoted in your post does not say that a rocket was fired from the convoy. What the Israeli military said was that the area where the attack on the convoy took place was a target because missiles had been launched from there.
Your claim that a Katyusha was fired from the convoy is shown by your own source to be complete unmitigated bullshit and I trust you will now retract it unreservedly.
buz (making it up as he goes along) writes:
They were in a moving convoy and the EVIL COWARDS knew full well that by the time the responding missile came in they would be safely ahead of the civilians hit for the sole purpose of drawing international sympathy for their cause.
Have you not watched the videos the Israelis have released of their aircraft destroying Katyusha launchers? They are always stationary - they have to be. Katyushas are completely unguided - you have to point them in the direction of the target and set the elevation of the launch tube and stuff like that.
This is from an article in the Baltimore Sun:
Most variants of the Katyusha can be set up and fired in less than an hour, said John Pike, a military technology expert at GlobalSecurity, a Web-based defense research organization.
The Iranian-built Fadjr-5 takes well over an hour for its truck-mounted launcher to be set up and adjusted, Pike said.
So the idea that Hezbollah could use a moving civilian convoy as cover for launching Katyushas is also complete unmitigated bullshit and I trust you will now retract it unreservedly as well.
So tell me buz, why are you making stuff up like this? Is it religious and/or racial bias that stops you doing even the most basic research to check your claims?

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 11:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2006 12:22 AM MangyTiger has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 300 (334180)
07-22-2006 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by DrJones*
07-21-2006 11:26 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
Evidently you did not read my message 22 and the link to it stating that the Israeli rocket targeted the convoy because a missile had been fired from it. I said:
They were in a moving convoy and the EVIL COWARDS knew full well that by the time the responding missile came in they would be safely ahead of the civilians hit for the sole purpose of drawing international sympathy for their cause.
Get it? The sinister cowards purposely positioned themselves in a moving convoy of refugees, firing a rocket from the moving convoy of innocent refugees fleeing the war zone, knowing full well that in a moving convoy after they fired the rocket from their vehicle an Israeli response would come in exactly at the point that their's was fired from. By the time the Israeli rocket came in the sinister cowards would be well out of range of the incoming missle and that it would surely hit whichever vehicles loaded with civilians in the convoy happened to be at that spot by the time the responding rocket came in. Imo, this is the epitimy of cowardice and evil. This, of course was to embitter the world against Israel. As per usual the Western liberal press failed to tell the Israeli story. I had to go to a Mid East and North Africa news source to get it.
link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, (embolding mine) and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times - 44k

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by DrJones*, posted 07-21-2006 11:26 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by DrJones*, posted 07-22-2006 12:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2006 2:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 300 (334182)
07-22-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 12:11 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
MT writes:
Your claim that a Katyusha was fired from the convoy is shown by your own source to be complete unmitigated bullshit and I trust you will now retract it unreservedly.
You better study up on the Israelli missile tech, MT. Ny understanding is that they are capable of and do pinpoint the very spot from which the enemy missile was fired from and if so, that spot had to be the convoy. Correct me if I'm mistaken. I will be off to church tomorrow (Sabbath) and Lord willing able to do more responding tomorrow PM.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:11 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 1:28 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 42 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-22-2006 10:12 AM Buzsaw has replied

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