Did Jesus die in vain?

Did Jesus truly die for our sins? It seems we are to be eternally grateful and yet the world is full of sin. Does this make sense?

Hello Heinrik,Don't worry, I am not going to bite you. We may have had a misunderstanding, but I won't let that stand in the way of a little sympathy I have for you. Because of it, I want to warn you. Having put your topic here in the Free For All forum, you run the risk of attracting a lot of heated debate, with the possibility of emotions running amok. There will be no administrator to keep people in check. The only way to deal with it will be to adopt a Teflon attitude, so to speak.Having said that, I want to react to your topic. It hinges on the reality of the concept of sin. I don't think that it's an objective fact that the world is full of sin, at least not divinely proclaimed sin, because I don't believe God exists. I think that what many believers think God has proclaimed as being sinful, is in fact just seen as undesirable by society, or parts thereof.Take homosexuality, for example. By many believers it is regarded as sinful, because it is "an abomination in the eye of God". But suppose that God does not exist. Then what they believe is not true, and homosexuality is not a sin at all, at least not by divine order. It may still be viewed by many as something that does not bear thinking about, but that may be because of other hidden, or even subconscious motives.The fact that the world is full of undesirable behaviour says more about society, in my opinion, than about the truth of the proposition that a man died for the sins of mankind two thousand years ago.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

thanks for your response and sympathy. However, I learned quite a lot from e=mc2 thread and come well armed with my teflon and also to keep nosey admin. out. I wasn't expecting replies from none believers as I don't believe they have the necessary belief system that is required to answer the questions. If you don't believe in God then there truly isn't any point in including your observations. Hope this is ok with you. regards

I can act as if, though. From the viewpoint of a believer, there are several possible ways in which this situation can make sense.

• First of all, there are many non-believers in the world. They sin by definition.
• Then there are those believers who's mind is strong, but whose flesh is weak. They sin too.
• Next, there are those who believe that people, even believers, are inherently sinful. There will be sin.
• There are also those who believe Jesus died for all sin, even future sin. So a small sin may not be so harmful, as long as one repents.

If you want me to quit posting here, just say so. I'll be happy to oblige.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Not at all, this is a free for all. Hmmm............. Is this what a believer would say?
Can you take a stance on one of them as a believer would?

If you take the view:a) Jesus died potentially for all the sin of mankind.
b) Jesus died effectively for the sin of all the saved....then Jesus "did truly die for our sins". I can see how we (the saved) could be temporally and eternally grateful but cannot see how they (the unsaved) could do other than howl eternally in anguish and torment at their folly.I see no making-sense related issue with the world being full of sin. In order for Jesus to die for all our sin there has to be opporunity for us to sin. And if dying for everyone, the world could be expected to be full of it. It would make less sense if it wasn't.(Besides, the world isn't literally full of sin, there is lots of love and goodness and kindness in it too)

Could you define these statements as to how you percieve them?

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Did Jesus truly die for our sins?

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No it never happened.

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It seems we are to be eternally grateful and yet the world is full of sin.

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Sin doesn't exist - it's a social construct.

Thanks can you support any of these statements?

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can you support any of these statements?

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It's only the second one that is important - if sin does not exist, the first is irrelevent.As for supporting it - I have seen no evidence that Sin exists, I cannot provide evidence because none exists. Do you have some evidence of sin as described in the bible and the christian faith? If you do, I'd like to see it because nobody else has managed to present it.

I believe Jesus existed. I believe there is sin e.g murder, rape, abuse of any kind is sin to me.I will hold those beliefs to be true until I find evidence to the contrary.

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I believe Jesus existed. I believe there is sin e.g murder, rape, abuse of any kind is sin to me.

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I will hold those beliefs to be true until I find evidence to the contrary.

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Well you are entitled to your individual beliefs but you cannot expect those of us who do not share your faith to take the fundementals of that belief as representing reality.I have never been presented with any evidence that sin exists, so if Jesus did die on the cross for our sins (which again is unlikely) - then beyond a symbolic act, then yes it was in vain.

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I have never been presented with any evidence that sin exists

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I assume that when you refer to sin you are not speaking about the acts that are generally considered sinful (e.g. murder, rape, etc), since those obviously exist, but rather some metaphysical 'sinfulness'?

Deleted duplicate post.Edited by compmage, : No reason given.

Sure, but you have to mix your time and eternity units along the way.When Gods wrath was poured out upon Jesus, he (God) extracted the price payable for the sin of those who would rely on God to pay the price due for their sin (whether living before, during or after the time of Christ). If all the people ever living had relied upon God in this way, then God would have extracted price A at the cross. If only one person out of all the people ever living had relied upon God in this way, then God would have extracted price Z.Jesus offered himself to pay for whatever the price might be. From A to Z or anything in between. That is what I mean by potentially paying for all. But if the potential is not released it can have no effect. The saved are those for who the potential payment has been rendered effective payment. Jesus has actually paid for their sin.