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Author Topic:   Supreme Court upholds Obamacare
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 16 of 98 (666555)
06-28-2012 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
06-28-2012 1:44 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Jon asks:
Does the current mandate create a 'single for-profit health insurer'?
No, it still leaves a mess. But now providers will have to use 80% of the money to actually do health care. Or something like that.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 1:44 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 98 (666561)
06-28-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
06-28-2012 1:44 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
I didn't make either of those claims. Could you elaborate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 1:44 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 3:31 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 98 (666563)
06-28-2012 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
06-28-2012 3:12 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
I didn't make either of those claims. Could you elaborate?
How do phrases I quoted you saying relate to the current mandate?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2012 3:12 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 98 (666564)
06-28-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by xongsmith
06-28-2012 2:12 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
No, it still leaves a mess. But now providers will have to use 80% of the money to actually do health care. Or something like that.
But we still aren't getting the savings that a single-payer system provides by way of being the only dog in town.
And this mandate doesn't get us any closer to a single-payer system.
Edited by Jon, : turned the wrong phrase

Love your enemies!

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(2)
Message 20 of 98 (666566)
06-28-2012 4:06 PM


Guys if the GOP doesnt like it you can bet it is because it will probably help people and negatively affect theirpockets.
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 98 (666575)
06-28-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
06-28-2012 3:31 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
How do phrases I quoted you saying relate to the current mandate?
What they relate to is Taq's message 8, which those remarks were a reply to.

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 Message 18 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 3:31 PM Jon has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 22 of 98 (666576)
06-28-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
06-28-2012 3:32 PM


Single payer, state by state
I think that the way this allows us to get to single payer is via state by state waivers. Vermont passed a single payer program and this ruling will allow that to go forward assuming that they get the waiver. California was something like 2 votes shy of doing the exact same thing.
The mandate/medicaid expansion allows the states to do this without becoming interstate-medical-tourism shops for the uninsured.

BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 3:32 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 5:42 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 98 (666582)
06-28-2012 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
06-28-2012 4:45 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
What they relate to is Taq's message 8, which those remarks were a reply to.
So how do they relate to the current mandate?

Love your enemies!

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 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2012 4:45 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 98 (666583)
06-28-2012 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jazzns
06-28-2012 4:53 PM


Re: Single payer, state by state
The mandate/medicaid expansion allows the states to do this without becoming interstate-medical-tourism shops for the uninsured.
The Medicaid expansion is a nice inclusion. But it is still only effective for the poor.
By the way, there has never been anything stopping the states from creating their own single-payer systems.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jazzns, posted 06-28-2012 4:53 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Jazzns, posted 06-28-2012 6:53 PM Jon has replied
 Message 35 by xongsmith, posted 06-29-2012 3:46 AM Jon has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 25 of 98 (666587)
06-28-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
06-28-2012 1:23 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Would it really matter whether everyone was covered by a government-operated pool, or by a single non-profit health insurer, or even a single for-profit health insurer that operated under heavy government supervision?
I think it does matter because of who each entity is accountable to. A government run system is ultimately accountable to the people. There is every reason that they would fight for cheaper and accessible health care because they are focused on serving the people. Compare this to a for-profit system where the insurer is accountable to the stockholders and investors. They have no interest in making health care affordable or accessible. What they are interested in is profit. There is no incentive for private insurers to make health insurance affordable to everyone since they can profit more from richer and healthier clients. As an analogy, Mercedes-Benz does not make a profit by making their cars affordable for absolutely everyone. In fact, no car company does.
I remember seeing signs at Tea Party rallies where they were equating ACA to socialism while telling their senators to keep their hands off of Medicare. Once people get used to ACA and even test out a public option they may grow more comfortable with it, especially if the public option is able to offer cheaper but equivalent benefits. Who knows.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 98 (666588)
06-28-2012 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
06-28-2012 1:15 PM


Re: Fox News Gets It Wrong ... And Then Gets It Wrong
Hi Dr Adequate
I love this picture
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 27 of 98 (666589)
06-28-2012 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dronestar
06-28-2012 1:17 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
First: Obama introduces a mandated corporatist policy to enrich health care insurance companies (which contribute no actual health care to our system. Way to go Obama!)
Second: Then Obama will offer government run health care which would then eliminate health care insurance companies.
I was thinking more of public perception and how many americans are averse to change. First, you need to conquer the aversion of being forced to participate in the health care system. That is what ACA will do. It doesn't matter at this point if it is government run or private. The main fear is being forced into a system. Once that fear is overcome then the next hurdle is selling government run insurance over private insurance. From my own experience, I really don't think you could do both steps at once. Just look at the backlash against ACA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dronestar, posted 06-28-2012 1:17 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 28 of 98 (666590)
06-28-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
06-28-2012 5:42 PM


Re: Single payer, state by state
By the way, there has never been anything stopping the states from creating their own single-payer systems.
Technically thats true, but there were numerous obstacles in the way of doing so before the ACA.
For one thing, in the old system, a single state with universal health care would be a magnet for the sick poor. This would probably destroy the system.
Under the ACA, the poor are essentially entitled to coverage no matter where they live. A single payer state may still be attractive in terms of lower insurance cost, which really only affects those who are paying for the premiums themselves.
My understanding is also that there are some technical legal issues with the new Medicaid rules which make this much easier now which has caused some states to look at it. All we need is a couple of them to get the ball rolling and they could even form inter-state/regional pools.

BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 5:42 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 98 (666593)
06-28-2012 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jazzns
06-28-2012 6:53 PM


Re: Single payer, state by state and Romneycare
Hi Jazzns
For one thing, in the old system, a single state with universal health care would be a magnet for the sick poor. This would probably destroy the system.
This has been a problem for MA and Romneycare, with people coming from out of state for emergency care (which is a bad way to get healthcare anyway)
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jazzns, posted 06-28-2012 6:53 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 98 (666600)
06-28-2012 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-28-2012 12:17 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
jar writes:
If the mandate is upheld as a reasonable extension of the Congress' Taxing powers then the next step to universal single payor health care support through taxation should also be reasonable.
If this helps people who really need affordable health care (like me) then i am all in favor of it. Had I no insurance, I would pay upwards of $350.00 a month for my basic needs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 06-28-2012 12:17 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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